Elinchrome Hi-Sync stopping motion vs Einstein flash duration stopping motion

[teigas]

The Einstein 640 has a flash Flash Duration (t.1) - in Action Mode from 1/588 to 1/13,500 second
Flash Duration (t.1) - in Color Mode from 1/588 to 1/8,000 second

I know that flash duration can stop water falling or freeze dancer etc.

But if i buy one elinchrome sky port hi sync trigger that supports a studio flash, and i can shoot it up to 1/8000 in shutter time.. Will that in teory have the same freezing effect as the einstein? At 1/8000 flash duration power setting?

Or will there be a difference? The einstein will use flash duration to freeeze, and the other flash but shutter time to freeze? Will it in teory be the same? or diffrences?

Her is info about the elinchrome system: www.elinchrom.com/learn/hss-hs.html

[Manfred M]

I have had mixed results with studio lights and HSS (with PocketWizard triggers on the Einstein lights). The main issue is that you are going to lose around 2 stops of light when you shoot HSS and unless you are looking at one of the larger Elinchrom units, you may not have enough power left to push out the light you need.

I would suggest you speak to someone who is knowledgeable with the lights you are considering when shooting HSS. The rest of us will only be guessing.

[teigas]

Yeah searched approval in the elinchrome facebook group. But wanted to check with the fysics or principle. That it would also be frozen by shutter time..

[William W]

The Einstein 640 has a Flash Duration (t.1) - in Action Mode from 1/588 to 1/13,500 second. Flash Duration (t.1) - in Color Mode from 1/588 to 1/8,000 second
I know that flash duration can stop water falling or freeze dancer etc.
But if i buy one elinchrome sky port hi sync trigger that supports a studio flash, and i can shoot it up to 1/8000 in shutter time. Will that in teory have the same freezing effect as the einstein? At 1/8000 flash duration power setting?
Or will there be a difference? The einstein will use flash duration to freeeze, and the other flash but shutter time to freeze? Will it in teory be the same? or diffrences?

I use Elinchrom Studio Flash Units.

Firstly, a few important points for clarity:

1. > The Elinchrom “Hi Sync” is NOT “High Speed Sync” (HSS) as per the terminology used by Canon and Nikon for example. In the case of “HSS”, the Speedlite unit pulses at a very fast speed providing tantamount to what is a continuous light source.

2. > Pocket Wizard technology invented “Hyper Sync”. This feature is available in some of Pocket Wizard’s Trigger Units. “Hyper Sync” is compatible with many (but not all) Studio Flash Units and Camera combinations.

“Hyper Sync” endeavours to time the flash triggering such that the maximum power of the flash is used across the duration of the Shutter Speed which is chosen.

Depending upon the Camera and the Flash Units being used, Hyper Sync is reasonable successful and I have found it OK to Shutter speeds of about 1/1250s with EOS 5D MkII cameras and the recent release of Elinchrom Flash Units – the more powerful the Flash the better the results.

The main issue with the “Hyper Sync” technology is, as the Shutter Speed increases AND /OR as the power of the Flash Unit decreases, there is more of the possibility of a fall off of the Flash Effective Exposure which can be evident at the bottom of the Image which appears as an underexposure similar to the rectangular vignette we get when the Flash Sync is out of whack.


3. > Elinchrom have invented “Hi Sync” (referenced in the opening post). I have not yet used this technology, but I have colleagues who have. “Hi Sync” seeks to correct the issues of the Flash Fall off (mentioned in >2 above). It seems logical that claim is possibly correct, because the “Hi Sync” triggers are made exclusively for Elinchrom Flash Technology and there are exclusive Triggers for Nikon and Canon (I think Sony too, but not sure).

These "Hi Sync" triggers are called “Sky Port Series” and are referenced in the Opening Post.

My friend uses Nikon Cameras and is attaining good results at 1/4000s with his “Sky Port” trigger.

Note that there have been a few different versions of Sky Port Units released and you should make sure that your Flash Unit as well as your Camera is FULLY compatible with the Sky Port Unit that you purchase.


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Your questions:

But if i buy one elinchrome sky port hi sync trigger that supports a studio flash, and i can shoot it up to 1/8000 in shutter time.

Yes you can use that Shutter Speed, but that does not necessarily mean that you will get the results that you expect. First note the above warning – then read on:

There have been a few different versions of Sky Port Units released and you should make sure that your Flash Unit as well as your Camera is FULLY compatible with the Sky Port Unit that you purchase.

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Will that in teory have the same freezing effect as the einstein? At 1/8000 flash duration power setting?

No.

Firstly, if you have been using the Einstein Flash Units in a Studio and the Studio’s Ambient Light was best practice, (i.e. the Studio’s Ambient Light was about 6~7 EV darker than the Flash Exposure) then the t.1 Flash Duration that you cite in your Opening Post is not the best number to factor as the “speed” which is arresting Subject Movement Blur: it is safer to use the t.5 measure to make an estimate of the approximate Shutter Speed necessary to arrest Subject Motion Blur.

Secondly, depending upon the relative EV of AMBIENT LIGHT EXPOSURE to the EV of the FLASH LIGHT EXPOSURE that you have in the scene when you use the Einstein in Hi Sync Mode, there will be (in theory) a difference in Subject Motion Blur and (in practice) there might be a noticeable Blur.
As the EV of AMBIENT LIGHT approaches the EV of the Flash Exposure, there will be more likelihood of Subject Motion Blur being noticeable

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The einstein will use flash duration to freeeze, and the other flash but shutter time to freeze? Will it in teory be the same? or diffrences?

I am confused by this question.

How many Flash Heads are you using?

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Note also that the perception of Subject Motion Blur in the Final Image is dependent upon other factors, including:

> Proximity of Subject to the Camera
> Direction of Subject Movement, relative to the Camera
> Speed of Movement (not all dancers travel at the same speed)
> Focal Length of the Lens
> Post Production Cropping
> Camera Format
> Image Enlargement
> Viewing Distance

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However, the $6,000,000 question is: Why do you want to use “Hi Sync”?

What is/are the problem/s or issue/s that you have with using the Einstein Flash Unit as it is at the moment?

WW

[Manfred M]

Bill - I suspect the issue is being able to obtain the Einstein flashes in Europe. Paul C Buff uses a direct distribution model that is North America only. They used to, but no longer ship internationally other than through a convoluted freight forwarder approach.

http://www.paulcbuff.com/international.php

From a technical standpoint, these lights behave more like Speedlights than traditional studio flash and the flash duration decreases as power levels decrease, so once you drop down to around 1/4 power you are getting a t.1 duration of 1/5000th sec and get to durations t.1 times that exceed 1/10,000th sec quite quickly. This means these units are great for high speed photography. You can find the performance curves here, under the comparison tab:

http://www.paulcbuff.com/e640.php

Terry (Loose Canon) uses Einstein 640 flash for some of his high speed work. I only use mine more traditionally for portraiture or product photography. Lars has been shooting a borrowed Einstein and would like to pick up some of his own gear, but that is proving impossible, so he is looking at alternatives.

[William W]

Ah Manfred - you were writing at the same time I was writing!

Here below is my commentary as it was written - but before it a few additional remarks:

Firstly the "curve" (Flash :: Rise and decay TIME) is very important - as we both have mentioned.

Secondly, I think that much of the reason for some models not being available in different areas/countries is because of local laws / regulations apropos Electrical / Electronic Equipment. I know that is why various Elinchrom gear in not available here, for me to use - in fact if even if prohibited models were plugged in to a power socket and not used, the fine (for professional/business use) is huge.


here is what I previously wrote . . .

I have had mixed results with . . . with PocketWizard triggers on the Einstein lights.

The main issue is that you are going to lose around 2 stops of light when you shoot HSS and unless you are looking at one of the larger Elinchrom units, you may not have enough power left to push out the light you need.

Hi Manfred,

I note that you’ve read my reply above and you certainly would have noted the differentiation of the terms “HSS” and Pocket Wizard’s “Hyper Sync” Mode.

That correction is not at issue with the content of your post, which I have quoted above and which I expand upon here below -

I also reference any Flash Power loss as being reckoned in F-Stops, doing so makes it a lot easier to reference an indicative Guide Number and an indicative Maximum Flash Distance.

My experience is that the actual "loss of Flash Power (measured in F-Stops), somewhat depends on which Pocket Wizard Trigger that you use; what camera that you use; and also the Shutter Speed that you choose AND what model Elinchrom Flash Unit that you use. - how much loss that there will be, depends on the FLASH’s POWER CURVE. (the decay bit of the curve).

I have not used the Einstein 640 Units, as mentioned I usually use 1000w units, but I do also use 500w Studio Flash Units - and it is my experience that the more powerful Flash Units generally exhibits LESS power loss when using Pocket Wizard’s “Hyper Sync” Mode.

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In summary – I have two points:

Firtsly and importantly for this conversation and applicable to the OP, I think that it is ‘safe’ to give a warning that there will be a Power LOSS of about 2 Stops when using the Elinchrom Einstein 640 Units with a Pocket Wizard in “Hyper Sync” Mode. It is also a good starting point to assume 2 Stops LOSS when using the Elinchrom "Sky Port" Triggers, too.

Secondly, as detailed comment for consideration by all those who use Pocket Wizard Triggers (or Elinchrom's "Sky Port" Triggers) I think that if you have been experiencing about Two Stops of Flash Power Loss with a Pocket Wizard Trigger in “Hyper Sync” Mode, then it is likely that you have been using reasonably fast Shutter Speeds (i.e. two stops or more faster the Max. Flash Sync Speed) and/or you have been near the limit of the Maximum Flash Working Distance.

I found out that the latter point is a very important consideration and this is the main reason for this commentary.

Most (engineering minded) people’s reckoning, (like mine) when we get involved in the "doing" we get use to interpreting the feedback from recognized inputs and standard processes to further refine those said procedures, but sometimes we discard (or forget) actual (important) measurements.

Stated another way, and as an example: you might have started out with a Flash/Aperture/ISO combination which was near the limits of the Maximum Flash Working Distance – but at the time not noticed how close to pushing that limit you were. Then you might have changed the set up slightly and used a faster Shutter Speed, maybe only 1 Stop faster than Maximum Flash Sync – and thereby activated Pocket Wizard in “Hyper Sync” Mode - the outcome might have reflected 2 Stops Loss of Flash Power, which you noted and then corrected – but what i am getting at is, there might have been only one stop (or a bit less) of Flash Power Loss if the original Flash Set Up was well within the Maximum Flash Working Distance.

The above was my experience.

It took me an afternoon and evening of head scratching to work out: 'Why there was so much “POWER LOSS” when I “ONLY” bumped the Shutter Speed to 1/400s.'

This is a small and nuanced point, but for someone whom I know has been very active working and learning Studio Flash recently, I trust that my experience is useful info for you - and to Lars and others.

WW

[teigas]

Thanks for the feedback.
The reason i wrote is that I have some elinchrome flashes and coul buy the skyport plus for my nikon and use their new technoligy. I also before I was aware of this bought a used Einstein 640 that I could probably sell of again because I got it really cheap.

So what i ment with it was: I am no expert but i experimented a little with this and when i was using the einstein and my Nikon D800 at shutter speed 1/200 it was the power settings on the einstein related to how fast the flash duration was that froze my dancer subjects in air. The shorter the duration the better it freezes the subject, or am i wrong now?

When and if I am using the Elinchromes, they have a pour flash duration so if i use them at 1/200 of a sec the picture will be blurry. Then my question is if i added the skyport pluss trigger for nikon and used the new elinchrome technology. Then it would be the shutter speed of my camera that froze the subject / stoped motion not the flash duration ? Or am i wrong again? And could the shutter speed in the new elincrhome way stop the motion just as good as the Einstein?

This is an example of what I shot when i borrowed the Einstein: https://500px.com/photo/155481043/st...ser_id=5753570

[William W]

. . . The reason i wrote is that I have some elinchrome flashes and coul buy the skyport plus for my nikon and use their new technoligy. I also before I was aware of this bought a used Einstein 640 that I could probably sell of again because I got it really cheap.

I Understand.

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. . . So what i ment with it was: I am no expert but i experimented a little with this and when i was using the einstein and my Nikon D800 at shutter speed 1/200 it was the power settings on the einstein related to how fast the flash duration was that froze my dancer subjects in air. The shorter the duration the better it freezes the subject, or am i wrong now?

You are right. The power setting relates to the Flash Duration
You are right. The SHORTER the Flash Duration the better it freezes the dancer.

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When and if I am using the Elinchromes, they have a pour flash duration so if i use them at 1/200 of a sec the picture will be blurry. Then my question is if i added the skyport pluss trigger for nikon and used the new elinchrome technology. Then it would be the shutter speed of my camera that froze the subject / stoped motion not the flash duration ? Or am i wrong again?

You are right: the shutter speed of the camera will determine whether or not you stop the motion of the Dancer.

BUT – as per my first reply and this is very important – it depends WHAT MODEL Elinchrom Flash you have, because you should NOT assume that “Sky Port” technology will work effectively with ALL models of Elinchrom Flash Heads

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And could the shutter speed in the new elincrhome way stop the motion just as good as the Einstein?

I don’t know.

Firstly, we need to know the exact model numbers of the Elinchrom Flash Heads ,that you have and how many Flash Heads you have. This would be the first step to investigate if your Flash Heads are FULLY compatible with the “Sky Port” Technology. Elinchrom will surely have a Compatibility Chart.

Secondly, do you have the Technical Specs for the Flash Heads that you have (specifically Power setting & Flash Duration). I am asking this to investigate the possibility of making images like the sample provided, without buying any more gear.

Thirdly, for your sample images of the Dancers in mid-air that you made with the Einstein Flash Heads - what was the Power Setting / Flash Duration that you used?

WW

[teigas]

Thanks again for the reply. I think I will just stick to the Einstein for now, and see if any used skyport triggers plus comes for sale. I have the elinchrome dlite 4, that is supported. Elinchrome and one other guy who had tested says this:The D-Lite RX 4 support Hi-Sync only with the Skyport Plus HS trigger.
The gradient effect can be minimized with the ODS functionality. Hi-Sync is camera, flash and shutter speed dependent. Impossible to tell you what the max shutter speed you can get before having banding." The best for the moment is of course the Quadra HS heads. He also says they should work good the dlites but i dont have the rx4 i have a slightly older version, so its a little gambling to if it will work or not. The einstein i get for almost the price of the trigger I have to add a 100dollars.
I also asked in an Elinchrome facebook group and one guy said he was only able to get it to sync around 1/800.

I cant remember what the duration was but I think it was around 1/6000. And a little lower power setting to get that. Thanks again for the reply.

I Understand.

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You are right. The power setting relates to the Flash Duration
You are right. The SHORTER the Flash Duration the better it freezes the dancer.

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You are right: the shutter speed of the camera will determine whether or not you stop the motion of the Dancer.

BUT – as per my first reply and this is very important – it depends WHAT MODEL Elinchrom Flash you have, because you should NOT assume that “Sky Port” technology will work effectively with ALL models of Elinchrom Flash Heads

*



I don’t know.

Firstly, we need to know the exact model numbers of the Elinchrom Flash Heads ,that you have and how many Flash Heads you have. This would be the first step to investigate if your Flash Heads are FULLY compatible with the “Sky Port” Technology. Elinchrom will surely have a Compatibility Chart.

Secondly, do you have the Technical Specs for the Flash Heads that you have (specifically Power setting & Flash Duration). I am asking this to investigate the possibility of making images like the sample provided, without buying any more gear.

Thirdly, for your sample images of the Dancers in mid-air that you made with the Einstein Flash Heads - what was the Power Setting / Flash Duration that you used?

WW

[William W]

. . . I think I will just stick to the Einstein for now, and see if any used skyport triggers plus comes for sale. I have the elinchrome dlite 4 . . .The einstein i get for almost the price of the trigger I have to add a 100dollars.

That seems a sensible choice. A real win would be if you could try (borrow or rent) a Sky Port for a couple of days.

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I cant remember what the duration was but I think it was around 1/6000. And a little lower power setting to get that. Thanks again for the reply.

For Photos of Dancers Leaping – at the typical Subject Distance you have in your portfolio, I think that you’ll get good results with the Einstein at a Flash Duration around 1/2000s and faster.

It would be good for you to know the SLOWEST Flash Duration that you can use, because that means you’ll be using the Highest Power setting possible. Ergo lower ISO and/or smaller Aperture.

You have an interesting and diverse portfolio and some of your landscape Images are top drawer. Good luck with the Studio Flash.

WW

[teigas]

Thank for all the help. Also thanks for the coment on my 500px account.

That seems a sensible choice. A real win would be if you could try (borrow or rent) a Sky Port for a couple of days.

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For Photos of Dancers Leaping – at the typical Subject Distance you have in your portfolio, I think that you’ll get good results with the Einstein at a Flash Duration around 1/2000s and faster.

It would be good for you to know the SLOWEST Flash Duration that you can use, because that means you’ll be using the Highest Power setting possible. Ergo lower ISO and/or smaller Aperture.

You have an interesting and diverse portfolio and some of your landscape Images are top drawer. Good luck with the Studio Flash.

WW

[f8andbethere]

I have 3 Elinchrom heads and the Skyport HS for a Nikon. 2 D-Lite 400's and 1 BRX500. The D-Lite 400's are the only ones I have that operate in HS, the BRX500 does not. I haven't used them to freeze motion so I can't speak about that however I do know that Elinchroms compared to some other brands don't have a very fast flash duration. I have only used the HS when shooting outside in the Arizona sun. I can shoot all the way to 1/8000 of a second at f1.8 if I need to. I have found that the faster the shutter speed, the higher the power I need in the strobe.
Typically, I meter for the ambient light then under expose that by a stop or two with my shutter speed according to the f-stop I want. It's a unique look.