Sunny 16 rule. Starting point only?

[rpcrowe]

I sometimes shoot without in-camera metering capability when I use my Vivitar Fish Eye lens which is not connected electronically with my camera. My shooting then, is in entirely manual mode.

I can gauge my exposure in one of three ways:

1. Use a second camera with metering capabilities and switch the exposure to the camera with my fish eye lens (I most often shoot with a pair of cameras)
2. Use a separate exposure meter (I have a Sekonic L-718, which is an oldie but goodie)
3. Use the rule of Sunny-16.

Since I first cut my teeth in photography using the Sunny-16 Rule (well over 50-years ago), I have confidence in the accuracy in my gauging exposure outdoors.

[tao2]

Hi, Manfred.

Before starting this thread, I wasn't aware that the sunny 16 and variants were only good to one f-stop. I'll confess that I was looking for some guidelines (rules, if you will) that would guarantee a good exposure (highlights not blown out) under sunny conditions. Given that I move around during the game and of course shoot in different directions depending on the action on the field, often the only consistent lighting feature is side to front lighting (try to avoid silhouettes). It would be great to make some manual exposure settings and know beforehand they would work. Seems, alas, such settings may not exist (I'll add that my team's jerseys are white and other team's are dark), so I'll need to check the histogram. Fortunately, there are always times when the action is too far for photos but some players are still close. I can easily fire off a shot or two then and check the exposure.

Hi Bruce,

Sunny 16 can/does help with difficult subjects e.g. light and dark areas on the football pitch and light dark areas on the players (light/dark kit). Sunny 16 is based on incident, not reflected light. Bright/dark is compensated for. Unlike the camera's metering system, it's not fooled by very light or dark conditions. It's based on the brightness of the light, not how it's being reflected.

In fact, Sunny 16 can show if yer digital camera's meter is slightly over or under exposing by using the Sunny 16 settings as a benchmark then comparing readings from the camera's metering system. Again, ye need tae get out and do trials...using only Sunny 16 - at first.

[William W]

Has anyone used sunny 16 rule as a sort of set and forget, or is it just a starting point and you need to tweak, perhaps frequently?

When the Lighting Scenario is appropriate and the Camera Viewpoint is reasonably static, I do.

Provided the conditions are stable and adhere to the Key Light being at EV = 15 then using the "F/16 Rule" there is no tweaking: it is very close to an absolute for the EXPOSURE LATITUDES of most commonly used (daylight) films and (daylight) digital sensors.

However, reading through the responses, I think that I might hold a different interpretation of and application for the "F/16 Rule" than some others do – including Wikipedia which I note cites only quite modern references.

My understanding and application the “F/16 Rule” is based upon two simple givens:
> the Sun is so far away, that the Light Source to Subject, Square Root Rule of fall-off is not applicable
> the Sun’s illumination is reasonably constant for a considerable period of daylight hours and at a considerable number of locations, around the world.

In précis, from my theory courses and various College Texts:

The F/16 Rule is based upon EV=15 which is typical of “Front Lit Daylight” on any Subject

Accordingly, the F/16 Rule states that the ‘correct’ exposure for a Subject in Front Lit Full Sun will be equal to F/16 @ 1/ISOs @ ISO or its equivalent provided that:
> The Subject is situated between the Tropics
> The image is made two hours after Sunrise and two hours before sunset

So that does NOT mean the “F/16 Rule” states that you MUST use F/16 or if you use ISO100 you MUST use 1/100s Shutter Speed. Also the rule does NOT mean if you are cannot make the ‘correct’ exposure for the SHADOW area of a side-lit athlete in full sun – it just means if you do, then you will likely blow some of the highlights in the full sunlit area of that scene, because that full sunlit area might be outside of the Exposure Latitude of the Film or Digital Sensor.

***

. . . I take a fair amount of sports photos (crew/rowing for my son and soccer/football for my daughter). Ignoring the specular highlights one encounters in crew, is sunny 16 (or not-so-sunny 11 or 8) a reliable rule? For soccer, I'm always (as you might guess) aiming at different points on the field, but I try to position myself so that the players will get somewhat consistent front or side light from the sun. If I rely on the meter, even with center-weighted metering, I'll get a lot of variation in the exposure. I'd prefer to just set the exposure manually and know that I won't get blown out highlights. The few times I've tried the sunny 16 setting, the LCD image seems very dark, so I switch back to shutter speed priority.

Those are some of the reasons why I use the F/16 rule if the situation is suitable – mainly for exposure consistency, especially for Field Sports where the background can have a large range of effect on TTL metering (thus affecting exposure if you are using Tv, Av or P Modes.)

WW

[William W]

These two images were made on different days, but at about the same time on cloudless sunny days and on the same field, from about the same Camera Viewpoint.

The point of the comparison is, using the F/16 Rule and M Mode, the exposures of the Athletes’ Skin Tones are consistent between the two images, but if I were using an Automatic Camera Mode and the TTL Metering, then (with my cameras) I know that I would have to use Exposure Compensation on the second shot because the large mass of concrete wall in the background would skew the TTL Meter’s reading:



***

This is a most telling example and practical experiment that I encourage you to do.

Get a white Subject and position it in three various situations similar to the example images and use a zoom lens with a similar set of three different Fields of View.

Make a few sets of three images – one using your TTL Meter and either P or Tv or Av Mode and if you want to expand the scope of the experiment, use all the various Metering Modes available, but at least typically use “Evaluative” (Canon) or “Matrix” (Nikon). Then compare any variations the camera evaluates for the exposures and the consistency of using The F/16 Rule.

Sample here and are the JPEGs SOOC

WW

Images © WMW 1974~1996 / AJ Group Pty Ltd (AUS) 1997~2016

[george013]

These two images were made on different days, but at about the same time on cloudless sunny days and on the same field, from about the same Camera Viewpoint.

The point of the comparison is, using the F/16 Rule and M Mode, the exposures of the Athletes’ Skin Tones are consistent between the two images, but if I were using an Automatic Camera Mode and the TTL Metering, then (with my cameras) I know that I would have to use Exposure Compensation on the second shot because the large mass of concrete wall in the background would skew the TTL Meter’s reading:



***

This is a most telling example and practical experiment that I encourage you to do.

Get a white Subject and position it in three various situations similar to the example images and use a zoom lens with a similar set of three different Fields of View.

Make a few sets of three images – one using your TTL Meter and either P or Tv or Av Mode and if you want to expand the scope of the experiment, use all the various Metering Modes available, but at least typically use “Evaluative” (Canon) or “Matrix” (Nikon). Then compare any variations the camera evaluates for the exposures and the consistency of using The F/16 Rule.

Sample here and are the JPEGs SOOC

WW

Images © WMW 1974~1996 / AJ Group Pty Ltd (AUS) 1997~2016

I do understand your argumentation on the first set. What I don't understand is in the link with the cat. If I would shoot that picture there would be a bigger difference in brightness between the shadows and sun hit places. Much harder. Maybe some other camerasettings where involved?

George

[brucehughw]

Bill,

thanks very much for all the thought you put into this and for taking and uploading the white cat photos. Your logic makes a lot of sense. The part about the blown highlights when one increases the exposure for shadows will be something I watch out for. There's a game tomorrow (rain/overcast forecast ), so this discussion may not be so applicable. But there will be more sunny game days, and I'll see about metering with a borrowed Sekonic light meter, ascertaining the EV is indeed close to 15, setting exposure (manually) around that, and so on.

Also, I'll look at some of my earlier photos and see how they fare re highlights and the recommended exposure.

Bruce

When the Lighting Scenario is appropriate and the Camera Viewpoint is reasonably static, I do.

Provided the conditions are stable and adhere to the Key Light being at EV = 15 then using the "F/16 Rule" there is no tweaking: it is very close to an absolute for the EXPOSURE LATITUDES of most commonly used (daylight) films and (daylight) digital sensors.

...
So that does NOT mean the “F/16 Rule” states that you MUST use F/16 or if you use ISO100 you MUST use 1/100s Shutter Speed. Also the rule does NOT mean if you are cannot make the ‘correct’ exposure for the SHADOW area of a side-lit athlete in full sun – it just means if you do, then you will likely blow some of the highlights in the full sunlit area of that scene, because that full sunlit area might be outside of the Exposure Latitude of the Film or Digital Sensor.

***
WW

[William W]

. . . But there will be more sunny game days, and I'll see about metering with a borrowed Sekonic light meter, ascertaining the EV is indeed close to 15, setting exposure (manually) around that, and so on.

Note that, for the purposes of my meanings in this conversation - The meter reading that you make with the (any) Hand Held Light Meter will be an Incident Light Meter Reading, with the Light Meter directed to the Sun.

WW

[William W]

. . . I don't understand is in the link with the cat. If I would shoot that picture there would be a bigger difference in brightness between the shadows and sun hit places. Much harder. Maybe some other camera settings where involved?

The shadow areas in the three cat photos are quite dark - view the images "Large" by clicking on them.

The only camera settings involved were simply that the camera was put into M Mode and then the Aperture; Shutter Speed; and ISO were selected: F/8 @ 1/1000s @ ISO250.

F/8 @ 1/1000s @ ISO250 ≡ F/16 @ 1/1000s @ ISO1000 (i.e. "correct" exposure for EV = 15).

*

The purpose of those three cat photos is to show the examples of the FIRST PART OF the exercise.

The second part of the exercise is to make three similar photos, using the camera in an Automatic Camera Mode and then examine how the TTL Light Meter in the camera might adjust the exposures, depending upon how much of the (white) cat is in the Direct Sunlight and how much of the dark shadowed background is in the Frame.

A similar exercise can be done with an empty Black Dinner Plate and an empty White Dinner Plate photographed in Direct Sunlight using the F/16 Rule with the Camera in M Mode and then another set using the TTL Light Meter and put the Camera in an Automatic Mode; then you can fill both plates with some fruit if you like.

For Wedding Workshops, I use a male model dressed in a Black Suit and a Female Model White dress.

*

The point of these exercises is to show:

> the value in the field of the speed of use, the application and the accuracy of the F/16 Rule (as defined previously in this conversation)

> that any REFLECTED light meter reading, can lead to inaccuracies or unexpected results and that those inaccuracies and unexpected results are dependent mainly upon the COLOUR / DENSITY of the area(s) that the light meter is reading

> on the other hand, the “F/16 Rule” accounts ONLY for the INCIDENT Light and then computes that at the predetermined value (i.e. EV = 15) and according to the definition of the "F/16 Rule", in Post #23

WW

[george013]

The shadow areas in the three cat photos are quite dark - view the images "Large" by clicking on them.

The only camera settings involved were simply that the camera was put into M Mode and then the Aperture; Shutter Speed; and ISO were selected: F/8 @ 1/1000s @ ISO250.

F/8 @ 1/1000s @ ISO250 ≡ F/16 @ 1/1000s @ ISO1000 (i.e. "correct" exposure for EV = 15).

*

The purpose of those three cat photos is to show the examples of the FIRST PART OF the exercise.

The second part of the exercise is to make three similar photos, using the camera in an Automatic Camera Mode and then examine how the TTL Light Meter in the camera might adjust the exposures, depending upon how much of the (white) cat is in the Direct Sunlight and how much of the dark shadowed background is in the Frame.

A similar exercise can be done with an empty Black Dinner Plate and an empty White Dinner Plate photographed in Direct Sunlight using the F/16 Rule with the Camera in M Mode and then another set using the TTL Light Meter and put the Camera in an Automatic Mode; then you can fill both plates with some fruit if you like.

For Wedding Workshops, I use a male model dressed in a Black Suit and a Female Model White dress.

*

The point of these exercises is to show:

> the value in the field of the speed of use, the application and the accuracy of the F/16 Rule (as defined previously in this conversation)

> that any REFLECTED light meter reading, can lead to inaccuracies or unexpected results and that those inaccuracies and unexpected results are dependent mainly upon the COLOUR / DENSITY of the area(s) that the light meter is reading

> on the other hand, the “F/16 Rule” accounts ONLY for the INCIDENT Light and then computes that at the predetermined value (i.e. EV = 15) and according to the definition of the "F/16 Rule", in Post #23

WW

I'm just jealous about the bright shadows on the cat and the fencing.

George

[brucehughw]

Yes, thanks.

Note that, for the purposes of my meanings in this conversation - The meter reading that you make with the (any) Hand Held Light Meter will be an Incident Light Meter Reading, with the Light Meter directed to the Sun.

WW

[xpatUSA]

Originally Posted by William W Note that, for the purposes of my meanings in this conversation - The meter reading that you make with the (any) Hand Held Light Meter will be an Incident Light Meter Reading, with the Light Meter directed to the Sun.

Yes, thanks.

I just did a quick experiment albeit statistically meaningless.

At about 8.30 am Solar Time where I live there was a nice cloudless sky. So I thought I would play with The Rule which I have never used before. I usually shoot at f/5.6 and always at 100 ISO.

So, for f/5.6, the rule says 1/800 sec for that - which is also about 15 Ev.

Then, lacking a 'proper' Light Meter I went out with my multi-function meter (CEM DT-2222) and monitored the sky at about 2,500 lux. That is about 10 Ev. The Rule expects more like 82,000 lux (15 Ev).

http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm#evfclux

Then, I spot-metered the sky with my camera at f/5.6, 100 ISO and got 1/250 sec for 0 EV. That is about 13 Ev.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposure_value

There we have it. Three methods of determining incident light in terms of Ev. Three different results: 15, 10, 13!

1) The rule is, of course the rule, hence "Sunny" Ev is fixed.

2) I'm sure a 'proper' light meter would have been more accurate - I have no idea what solid angle my lux-meter covers; for all I know it was including surrounding trees and stuff. It doesn't have a dome, just slots.

3) I do trust the camera - a Sigma SD1 Merrill. And I often monitor the sky and then reduce the Ev by some amount determined by experience and the needs of the scene itself (slight head-wobble). I spot-meter important places in the scene too.

It was quite simple a while back:

[William W]

Once you make an incident meter reading, or a few, then you can establish your own Rule for the Latitude at which you normally shoot and for your own Cameras' Exposure Latitudes.

As an example when I was covering Weddings (Sydney Aus) with EOS 5D and EOS 30D, my friend in San Francisco (USA) was using the same model cameras. She'd use F/16 Rule plus 1/3 Stop and we both had about 2/3 Stop headroom on the highlights using the 5D camera. In winter there was about 1/3 Stop difference.

I went to Palm Cove (Qld AUS) to shoot a Wedding - part of the coverage was shot on a beach: and I pulled back one full stop and I checked that with a Spot Meter reading on a Grey Card - I was close I only needed to pull back 2/3 Stop.

It's about an holistic approach. The point is, the Opening Post describes shooting repetitive, similar images with the Subject under the same KEY LIGHT, but with various Framing and various Backgrounds: this scenario is quite common for some situations in Sports' Photography. If one wants the exposure on the Subject to be consistent, then the ability to "set and forget" should be pursued. In some circumstances the method of NOT using the camera's TTL Meter, suits my techniques and my subsequent workflow to reduce the amount of Post Production time by maintaining exposure continuity, especially if the purpose is to capture JPEG files, SOOC. Also a "set and forget method" is very useful for the Ambient Exposure when using M Mode in concert with using Flash as Fill, in Sunlight: we find this shooting scenario quite often when covering Weddings and other outdoor Social Events.

WW