Considering a tripod for indoor extreme macro and stacking.

[JBW]

Hi one and all. The Slick U8000 I now use is a good tripod. But there's just enough play to make stacking more of a hit or miss than a skill.

In another week or two our small solarium will be ready. I would like to find a tripod that will solidly support, camera, table and extension tubes.

Suggestions?

[Stagecoach]

Some thoughts Brian,

If you are considering an improved setup and for using tubes is it your intention to still use lens barrel rotation for changing focus or the other option of a focus rail?

I ask this because with tubes there can be a bit of additional play and if you rig is mounted by the camera tripod screw even the sturdiest of tripods will not solve all the problems as each time you touch the lens barrel you may get movement whilst the tripod remains absolutely rigid.

In addition I assume you have considered a head, ball or three way pan?

[JBW]

Some thoughts Brian,

If you are considering an improved setup and for using tubes is it your intention to still use lens barrel rotation for changing focus or the other option of a focus rail?

I ask this because with tubes there can be a bit of additional play and if you rig is mounted by the camera tripod screw even the sturdiest of tripods will not solve all the problems as each time you touch the lens barrel you may get movement whilst the tripod remains absolutely rigid.

In addition I assume you have considered a head, ball or three way pan?

I am too ignorant on the subject to do much thinking.
However I am considering focus rail with extension tubes. As for a preferred head I am clueless.

[Manfred M]

I am too ignorant on the subject to do much thinking.
However I am considering focus rail with extension tubes. As for a preferred head I am clueless.

Brian - I don't do macro work, so can't be specific to that field of photography, but I do some long exposure night photography, so know all about trying to keep a camera rock steady for long exposures.

There are two things to consider, the ability of your tripod and head to support the dead weight of the heaviest load, without collapsing and the second parameter is can it do so without any creep.

The heaviest normal load I shoot is just a bit under 3 kg / 6.6lb (camera, batteries, accessories and lens). My smallest tripod is rated for 6 kg / 13.2 lbs, so I in theory have a safety factor of 2 (i.e. the gear I put on it is only 1/2 of what the manufacturer states it can hold). I NEVER use it because the whole setup is simply too flexible and while it does not collapse under the weight, I know it does not even come close to being steady enough for anything other than casual shooting and I never use it for my heaviest camera.

My largest tripod is rated at 30 kg / 66lb and the head is rated at 22.7kh / 50lb. That one holds everything rock solid and I can take a 30 minute exposure without thinking twice about getting perfect registration. In fact, I've done shots that took well over 2 hours and got pixel level registration.

I'm not suggesting you need to go quite that crazy, but I would suggest you look at a tripod that has properties that are good enough for the work you are trying to do.

[JBW]

Brian - I don't do macro work, so can't be specific to that field of photography, but I do some long exposure night photography, so know all about trying to keep a camera rock steady for long exposures.

There are two things to consider, the ability of your tripod and head to support the dead weight of the heaviest load, without collapsing and the second parameter is can it do so without any creep.

The heaviest normal load I shoot is just a bit under 3 kg / 6.6lb (camera, batteries, accessories and lens). My smallest tripod is rated for 6 kg / 13.2 lbs, so I in theory have a safety factor of 2 (i.e. the gear I put on it is only 1/2 of what the manufacturer states it can hold). I NEVER use it because the whole setup is simply too flexible and while it does not collapse under the weight, I know it does not even come close to being steady enough for anything other than casual shooting and I never use it for my heaviest camera.

My largest tripod is rated at 30 kg / 66lb and the head is rated at 22.7kh / 50lb. That one holds everything rock solid and I can take a 30 minute exposure without thinking twice about getting perfect registration. In fact, I've done shots that took well over 2 hours and got pixel level registration.

I'm not suggesting you need to go quite that crazy, but I would suggest you look at a tripod that has properties that are good enough for the work you are trying to do.

Which is why I start here instead of a companies brochure

[Stagecoach]

I am too ignorant on the subject to do much thinking.
However I am considering focus rail with extension tubes. As for a preferred head I am clueless.

Brian,

Here's a pic of the rig I often used showing a three way pan and tilt head and simple focus rail. It's also using three extension tubes plus flash at the end, perhaps the worst condition

The focus rail is not essential but it does give you easy control of linear distance movement for focus slices whereas rotation of the lens barrel is logarithmic. It also has an advantage in that it can be used to support the lens/tubes to the camera which in this pic I used paper folded but advanced to a 3" long yellow HB pencil that was the perfect fit eventually

[JBW]

that would be the general idea. Any suggestions for a no creep, steady rig to attach my sony / tamron combo to.

[James G]

Hi Brian,

If you are manually advancing the rig for your macro shots I would suggest always using a cable/remote release to take the shots? Doing so will avoid movement caused by depressing the shutter.
The other point that occurs to me, since you are considering using extension tubes for extreme magnification, is that the shutter release could also be an issue. Using mirror up and a couple of seconds lag before the actual exposure wiill allow any vibrations to dissipate.

I don't usually shoot my stacks 'in studio'. I'm normally shooting fungi outside, and because of the issues of getting down low etc, I use Grahame's suggested method. Specifically a tethered system using my laptop/tablet and a control program, Helicon Remote, to advance/step the focus rather than advance the full rig. This is totally hands free, and barring effects of breeze, no movement once set up.

If your extension tubes allow full electronic communication between camera and lens (ie so that you can automate the focus advance), this might be worth considering.

http://www.heliconsoft.com/heliconso...elicon-remote/

I use a Manfrotto Xpro 3 way geared head in the field which allows fine adjustment for set up, but as Manfred pointed out, I find there is always a small degree of play in the head as I adjust it. So once the shot is set up I avoid touching the rig.

[george013]

A few weeks ago I was playing with my camera. A sigma 105 macro, a 2x macro converter between lens and camera and a Raynox in front of the lens. I managed to get a magnification of about 12. Two mm on a 24mm heigh sensor.
I used a macro rail on a 3-way head to focus but that happened to be the weak point, beside my floor.
I think in general one can say how further the camera is from the junction of the 3 legs of the tripod, the more motion blur one gets due to the tripod. So both the head and the macro rail is adding to that, even if they are stiff as can be.
The working distance, space between object and lens, was about 2 cm. I didn't measure it.

George

[DanK]

Brian,

I do a lot of stacking indoors, so I may be able to help.

First, you wrote:

The Slick U8000 I now use is a good tripod. But there's just enough play to make stacking more of a hit or miss than a skill.

Can you describe where the play is, and when it happens?

One source of play occurs when you aim the camera, and the head allows the camera to settle after you lock it. This kind of play messes up framing, but it shouldn't affect stacking much. Once the gear has settled, it should be stable.

Other sources of play occur later and can affect stacking. If any of the joints in the setup aren't tight--for example, if the ballhead still moves, or you have a center column that isn't fully damped and locked down--that could cause movement BETWEEN shots, and that in turn can mess up stacking.

Here's a picture of my setup for a shot some years ago. It was a Canon 50D with a 60mm lens, but I use a similar setup now with heavier gear (5DIII and 100mm macro, with or without tubes) with no problem:



Here's a description:

You have to have a stable base. That is essential. The table in my photo is rock solid and heavy. However, that's not enough; it's on a wood floor, which moves enough to be a problem. If you can do this on a concrete floor, it will be easier. As it is, I stand stock still for a bit and let the subject settle back down between shots.

The tripod is a moderately priced lightweight carbon-fiber one. It is no longer sold, but it has been replaced with a similar one, which will give you an idea what I am talking about. It is well-damped. You don't need a heavier tripod indoors, although if you are not going to lug it around, you might as well get a sturdier one.

I use a Manfrotto geared head most of the time, but they are pricey. A decent ball head works fine once the gear settles, but it will settle, so initial framing is harder.

I always use a remote release. I usually adjust focus manually, but I let everything settle after I have touched the camera. I do own Helicon remote, and it does take some of the guess work out of changing focus and lets you avoid touching the camera, but I found that the defaults were wrong, and it too me a few hours to get the intervals set right.

Re a rail: good ones aren't cheap, and unless you are doing a high level of magnification, it isn't necessary. I actually do own a high-quality rail (a Kirk), and it is mounted on top of my geared head, but I have never once used it to adjust focus between images in a stack, going up to roughly 2:1. I use it to make it easier to move the camera back and forth for initial framing without changing any other aspect of framing. If you prefer using a rail for to create the stack, there is no reason not to, but I just want to point out that you don't need to spend the money. If you want to go for very high levels of magnification, that's a different story.

[Shadowman]

I would consider the focusing rail, I just purchased a 3-way head that I'm using on my monopod, and another option would be a ringlight setup.

[rpcrowe]

I usually opt for a tripod and head that is advertised to support a minimum of twice the weight that I intend for it to support.

IMO, there is a great difference between a tripod/head that will not collapse or fall over when loaded with camera/lens and a tripod/head that you plan to have it support; and a unit able to support the weight you are using without creeping.

Another thing that I like in a tripod for macro or close up photography use is for the unit to articulate, enabling me to place the camera/lens in virtually any position I desire.

Using a focusing rail can help in this type of shooting however an Arca Compatible clamp and a long Arca camera/lens plate can also be handy.

I use a Giottos MT8180 Carbon Fiber Tripod which is advertised to support 26 Pounds. It is called a "Light Weight" tripod but, IMO, it certainly is not light in weight. It is a pretty hefty unit. The carbon fiber leg set and MH 1300 head weigh almost eight pounds. I also use a modified Slik tripod for traveling and hiking...

Here is the Giottos next to my really light weight modified Slik travel tripod...



Here is the MH1300 head I use on it contrasted to the Adorama Flashpoint F1 head I use on my Slik. Quite a difference in size and bulk...



I like the Giottos combination now that I have removed the safety stud from the Giottos Arca Compatible Clamp which made mounting other than Giottos plates difficult. You can see the silver colored safety stud at the rear, image left of the Giottos clamp. Depressing the red button causes the safety stud to move towards the center of the clamp. Most plates, other than Giottos OEM, are not compatible with this design.

However, this head and clamp is a unit that will lock solidly and will not creep after being locked in place. I like the three knob design of this head. On knob controls the rotation of the head. Another knob locks the head secure. The third head controls the amount of effort needed to move the camera once the head is unlocked.

The tripod has a hook beneath the center column that can attach to a weight to keep the pod even more secure.

Giottos, doesn't appear to make the wide range of tripods and heads that it once did. The MT-8180 and MH1300 are no longer available. I picked up the tripod and head at a decent (but not at all cheap) price when Giottos was selling them off after discontinuing the model.

BTW: A tripod ring or an Arca L Bracket allows the camera/lens to remain over the center of gravity of the tripod and doesn't need to be cantilevered over to the side when in a vertical configuration.

[JBW]

I'm reading everything and pondering

[Manfred M]

John - just to add to the confusion, here are some shots of three of my tripods (my video tripod and my tabletop tripod are not in these shots).

The one on the left is the one that is rated at 6kg / 13.2 lb and the one on the right is the one that is rated at 30kg / 66lb.




The real story when it comes to being rigid are the diameter of the legs. The larger the diameter, the more rigid the tripod is. I have spikes for all three units and I use these instead to the elastomer feet when shooting on soft outdoor surfaces.




When I look at the design of your Slick U8000, I suspect it is not particularly rigid:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...ped_fragment_=

[Mike Buckley]

The real story when it comes to being rigid are the diameter of the legs. The larger the diameter, the more rigid the tripod is.

That's interesting because I bought a new tripod about a week from Manfrotto that replaces my broken Manfrotto tripod. The primary differences are that the new tripod's legs have four sections whereas the old tripod's legs have only three sections and that the diameter of the legs on the new one are noticeably smaller. Yet the weight of both tripods are essentially the same as is the rated bearing load.

The smaller diameter of the legs certainly makes the tripod appear to be less stable but I haven't used it enough in the short time I've owned it to know if any less stability that might exist will affect the type of photography that I do. I doubt that it will. If it does affect it, I'll hang a bag on it.

[rpcrowe]

Dan, I noticed that you have the center column elevated in your image of the setup you use. I try not to use the center column on any of my tripods. In fact, I modified my Slik travel tripod with an optional shorter (and lighter) center column as well as an lighter Flashpoint F-1 head.

The Giottos is hefty enough to use the canter column but, the tripod is tall enough that I don't need that extra height.

This modified tripod and head will easily support my 1.6x cameras with 70-200mm f/4L IS lens. However, I don't raise the center column when using this rig. I will admit that the rig is a bit short for me (I am 6'1" tall) but, I am willing to bend over somewhat to have a relatively solid light weight travel tripod.



I also have a desk top tripod which I occasionally use. I will throw this tiny tripod in my travel bag when I don't take another tripod. It will support the camera and lens fairly well...



I usually don't use the center column on this tiny tripod but, I did a test (with the lens' IS turned on) and it worked pretty well for an emergency tripod.

[mknittle]

I was looking at these legs. for general all round use.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ..._series_2.html

[Manfred M]

The smaller diameter of the legs certainly makes the tripod appear to be less stable but I haven't used it enough in the short time I've owned it to know if any less stability that might exist will affect the type of photography that I do. I doubt that it will. If it does affect it, I'll hang a bag on it.

Mike - this to a large extent depends on what / how you are shooting. A single shot at even a relatively slow shutter speed can be pulled off on any tripod / head strong enough to support your camera.

Where the issues start is when you are looking at pixel level registration that Brian is looking at for focus stacking. You don't want anything to move. The one reason I got my heavy-duty Feisol tripod is that I found that my medium sized Benro was simply not rigid enough when I wanted long exposures that ran over minutes if not hours.

A tripod's legs are like springs. Small flexible ones get a load on them when we put our camera / lens on tit and it really can bounce around a bit, especially if there are vibrations from people walking or the wind is blowing. Try extending your new tripod and extend it all the way out, put your camera on it and give the whole rig a good push on the lens hood to cause some torsion. Now collapse the tripod so that it is shorter and try the same thing, it will be a lot more rigid. That's where a stiffer tripod comes in - it resists those small forces and you can get pixel level registration.

[DanK]

Dan, I noticed that you have the center column elevated in your image of the setup you use. I try not to use the center column on any of my tripods. In fact, I modified my Slik travel tripod with an optional shorter (and lighter) center column as well as an lighter Flashpoint F-1 head.

Richard,

I understand the drawbacks of center columns for some uses, but I consider them virtually a necessity for macro work. In macro work, even a slight movement in a direction you don't want messes up framing. If I find that I need to raise or lower the camera to get a better framing, the center column allows me to do that without otherwise moving the camera. It's virtually impossible to do that by adjusting legs.

The center column also allows me to get the lens almost to ground level when I need that:



I do sometimes wish I had an articulating arm instead of a center column, but for my uses, a center column is far better than none. If i am outside and it's windy, I can simply lower it to the bottom, which (at least on mine) is completely rigid.

Dan

[Mike Buckley]

Richard,

I would consider your tripod a medium weight tripod, not one that is light weight. There are certainly a lot lighter-weight tripods.