When Manual is not totally manual

[Chrisclick]

MOD COMMENT

This 'discussion' has been moved out of the original thread because the direction it took was not going to help the OP.

This is the picture (click to view larger in LyteBox):

Nice shot, Jim.

I think it is not quite as sharp as it could be. Not sure if it is a focus issue or a camera movement problem. Looking at the EXIF, I would guess camera movement. In Aperture priority mode, your camera has selected a SS of just 1/80th sec. Your lens was zoomed to 160mm, which means that even with IS/VC swithed ON, you would be very lucky to get a tack sharp image.

You probably know about the rule of thumb re Shutter Speed and Focal Length; best to shoot with a SS at least equivalent to the Focal Length. For example, if shooting at 200mm, best to have a SS of least 1/200th sec (preferably faster).

So, at 160mm, you would choose a SS of at least 1/160th sec. Having said that, most modern lenses have some form of Image Stabilization (IS) or Vibration Compensation (VC) which when turned ON will allow you to shoot at slower SS than the rule would recommend.

For this particular shot, you can see that the camera selected the SS, and it was half the value recommended by the rule (160th). Some brands/types of lens have excellent VC, and will still render a tack sharp image under these conditions. Some will not.

Aperture Priority is a great shooting mode, and also very popular. Although, in this instance, it has been forced to select a relatively slow Shutter Speed as a result of the Aperture setting (f/6.3) and the available light. This has rendered a good image, just not quite as sharp as it could be.

Shooting in Manual Mode is definitely preferred.

[pnodrog]

To understand the choices to be made in all aspects of controlling exposure so that you will be comfortable shooting in manual mode is very important. However other than that, manual mode is just one of the modes a photographer may use and in many cases is not the most appropriate one to use.

[Chrisclick]

To understand the choices to be made in all aspects of controlling exposure so that you will be comfortable shooting in manual mode is very important.

Inversely Paraphrased: Using Manual Mode is very important in helping you to understand all aspects of controlling exposure so that you will be comfortable shooting anything, anywhere, once mastered.

...manual mode is just one of the modes a photographer may use and in many cases is not the most appropriate one to use.

Inversely paraphrased: Manual mode is the only mode where the photographer has complete control over all aspects of exposure and is entirely appropriate in any situation.

[Mike Buckley]

Inversely Paraphrased: Using Manual Mode is very important in helping you to understand all aspects of controlling exposure so that you will be comfortable shooting anything, anywhere, once mastered.

Manual mode is the only mode where the photographer has complete control over all aspects of exposure and is entirely appropriate in any situation.

I can't think of any combination of camera settings that is entirely appropriate in every situation. Indeed, I can think of situations when manual mode would not be ideal and all of them involve light changing so rapidly in an action scene that the photographer doesn't have time to manually change the exposure settings in between shots.

I'm reasonably confident that I mastered exposure very early on (it's not a difficult concept) and I didn't use manual exposure to get to that point. Indeed, I've been photographing since 1983 and never used manual exposure until a few years ago, when I occasionally find it the ideal solution when working in my makeshift studio, especially when using flash units.

[pnodrog]

Inversely paraphrased: Manual mode is the only mode where the photographer has complete control over all aspects of exposure and is entirely appropriate in any situation.

To claim manual mode is entirely appropriate in any situation is correct only if you can interpret a sudden change in exposure and make the required adjustments as fast as the camera electronics can........ I do not have a reaction time plus dial turning time of under 5 milliseconds.

[Chrisclick]

I can't think of any combination of camera settings that is entirely appropriate in every situation.

Mike, slow down a little bit, you seem to have misinterpreted my words.

I did not suggest or imply that there was a "combination of camera settings" that was appropriate to every situation - of course that would be ludicrous! Who would suggest such a thing? The idea is, that Manual Mode, not a "combination of settings", is appropriate in every situation.

I am surprised and confused that you would extract that meaning from that sentence.

Indeed, I can think of situations when manual mode would not be ideal and all of them involve light changing so rapidly in an action scene that the photographer doesn't have time to manually change the exposure settings in between shots.

Believe it or not, Mike, there is a trick for this! This thread should explain it: Just a splash or, the perils of auto ISO

Interestingly, you were the first to add your comment on that thread, and seemed to understand the concept quite well, even if you did misinterpret the inference of the opening statement.

Floating the ISO in Manual Mode is a well-known, wonderful time saver, for sports and wildlife photographers.

I'm reasonably confident that I mastered exposure very early on (it's not a difficult concept) and I didn't use manual exposure to get to that point. Indeed, I've been photographing since 1983 and never used manual exposure until a few years ago, when I occasionally find it the ideal solution when working in my makeshift studio, especially when using flash units.

Mike, it's not about you.

[Mike Buckley]

Mike, it's not about you.

You're correct, Chris. Unfortunately, you seemed to try and make it all about me. Your apparent interest in ridicule explains why I won't take the time to clarify any of the information.

[Chrisclick]

Glad the message got through.

Yes, it's important to limit the use of words like "I", "I've","me", "my", "mine" wherever possible in spoken or written communication, as excessive use tends to cause one to be perceived as an egomaniac.

Your opinion is still well respected, Mike. Never fear, your reputation is intact. Now, put that wine bottle down!!

[Stagecoach]

Floating the ISO in Manual Mode is a well-known, wonderful time saver, for sports and wildlife photographers.

I agree with that statement and it is a great mode/method when you fully understand what you are doing and the consequences of the individual settings on the final image taken.

I personally love it because it gives me total control of three settings (A,S and ISO) by the use of two easily accessed and adjusted thumb-wheels (on my cameras). Camera ergonomics may not make it so easy to use on some models.

But, I have always pondered over whether this should be referred to as a 'Manual' use of the camera

[Chrisclick]

But, I have always pondered over whether this should be referred to as a 'Manual' use of the
camera

Completely agree, Grahame. It seems like cheating.

You only need to set your desired SS and Aperture, the ISO takes care of itself! With birds in flight, you should know the SS required to capture the shot (for me this is usually 1/1250), set your aperture, and, on a clear day the camera will select a low ISO.

If the light changes, the camera will select a higher ISO - without you having to do anything. The upshot is - you get the shot!

No time wasted fiddling with dials, what could be simpler?

Using this method:


1/1250, f/8, ISO (auto selected) 320

[pnodrog]

Chris saying in manual without adding with auto ISO enabled was very misleading and of course negates your statement that manual mode is the only mode where the photographer has complete control over all aspects of exposure. Allowing the ISO to be adjusted by the camera offers no more control than say using aperture priority and setting the aperture, ISO, exposure compensation and letting the camera choose the speed. I repeat understanding the choices that can be made regarding the exposure is far more important than the mode that is used.

Manual mode with auto ISO is very useful but photographers need to understand the effect that the EC setting has on the exposure as it differs from make to make.

[Chrisclick]

Now, Paul, you should be able to see that Auto ISO was only mentioned in response to Mike's retort: "Indeed, I can think of situations when manual mode would not be ideal and all of them involve light changing so rapidly in an action scene that the photographer doesn't have time to manually change the exposure settings in between shots."

It was not misleading at all and it does not negate anything, it was by way of explanation. And yes, it is an extended use of the Manual Mode which, as already mentioned, does seem like cheating as the camera will select the ISO setting for you.

Let it go now , Paul. (Gordon P)

[pnodrog]

Chris sorry if I seem grumpy but for years self appointed gurus claimed manual mode was the best mode and before the advent of auto ISO it was of course absolute rubbish. It was the preferred mode for teaching photography and helped students to fully understand exposure control, DOF, elminating subject movement, etc. However it was not always the best mode. The best mode will depend on the factors the photographer wishes to control (or needs to control) and the type of photography being done. The mode that most effectively produces the required results is the best mode.

[NorthernFocus]

Shooting in auto ISO provide's no more control of EXPOSURE than any other auto setting. It offers definitive control of ss and aperture but rhe only control the user has over exposure is via EC. Same as other auto modes. Shooting in M mode with auto ISO enabled is NOT manual exposure. Not clear how that operating modes helps one learn exposure any better than any other auto mode. Creative control of motion and DOF surely but not exposure.

Even when one truly shoots in fully manual mode we typically rely on the camera''s light/exposure meter. As such there is an argument to be made that the best way to understand said meter behavior is by shooting in one of the auto exposure modes and understanding why the resulting exposure sometimes doesn't meet our expectations.

[Manfred M]

Chris - let me start by saying I firmly support the notion that a photographer should be able to operate a camera when set to manual mode, and to me that includes the ability to focus manually as well. Let me further state as someone who shot a manual film cameras for decades, these are skills I have retained. There are only three specific circumstances where I personally find it necessary to shoot with the camera in manual mode; when shooting with manual flash (where there is no automation available, but I will often use autofocus) and when I shoot panoramas (where I want the frames that are stitched together to have no variation in either exposure or focus). Shooting outside of the automation parameters of my camera (for example, an exposure that is longer than 30 seconds and I need to switch to bulb mode) also falls into this category, but that is something I don't do very often at all. I suspect there might be a few other places where total manual operation are necessary, but at present, I'm either not aware of these.

That is pretty well where my agreement with your statement ends. I see little difference between using the camera's meter reading and then manually dialing in either a shutter speed and matching aperture (for a given ISO value) or dialing in a specific aperture setting and then dialing in the appropriate shutter speed versus shooting in one of the automation modes; shutter priority and aperture priority. At this point I am going to ignore both program mode and auto-ISO (as well as using exposure compensation) as these are essentially special cases that do not really impact what I have written.

That takes me to the view of personal preferences - yes, please go ahead and shoot whatever way you wish, so long as your results are to your liking. I know a few photographers who prefer shooting in manual mode and this includes some who specialize in landscapes, birds in flight and concert photography. I understand their choices and who am I to argue if that is their preferred way of working. The flip side of the argument is that one should not force that view of thinking on others, especially if it can be demonstrated that this is little more than personal preference, rather than something that actually affects the outcome.

Let's also get around to that very much overused reciprocal of the focal length being the slowest shutter speed rule of thumb. It comes from the days of 35mm film photography where long lenses were very uncommon and the most common print size was 8" x 10" / A4 sized. If I braced myself properly I could easily beat this rule by a stop and if I was particularly steady that day even two stops. A typically large and heavy lens / SLR camera combination acted as a natural stabilization mechanism (i.e. inertia is one's friend) can be held steadier than a modern lightweight crop sensor camera. Add to that the variable of image stabilization, which of course is dependent on the camera model (for in camera IS) and specific lens model (for stabilized lenses). Nicely said, you need to consider (and know) your equipment, shooting skills and shooting circumstances to make a call on the minimum shutter speed. Yes, given the lens (18-300mm) and camera used (Nikon D5200) in this shot, I suspect that 1/80th second exposure is going to be a bit on the slow side, especially if there is no place to properly brace for the shot.

Finally, auto-ISO. It is a mode I tend to use only when I shoot in situations where the lighting is quite variable. I tend to try to shoot at base ISO as much as possible as the camera's dynamic range, colour depth and noise performance are best at this setting. The moment you increase ISO, these characteristics deteriorate. At close to the base ISO, the cost of raising ISO is not too severe, but as you increase the value, the image quality takes a hit too. The "problem" with ISO is the way that it is implemented. While I am simplifying what happens, the camera's sensor has a fixed performance and the way that ISO is implemented, the base signal is amplified once you get off that base, and amplifying the signal comes with all of the mentioned side effects. While one can get the data for many cameras at the DxO Mark website, have a look around at the camera used in this shot for specifics.

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Niko...--Measurements

[Tronhard]

When I look at the controls for my cameras my personal rating of them as follows:
Full Manual: I change the shutter, aperture and ISO settings
Manual: I set the shutter and aperture settings
Semi-Auto: I set either the shutter or aperture and the camera sets the other two variables
Program The camera sets all three
Auto: The camera sets all three plus it will pop up flash if it feels necessary.

[Stagecoach]

When I look at the controls for my cameras my personal rating of them as follows:
Full Manual: I change the shutter, aperture and ISO settings
Manual: I set the shutter and aperture settings
Semi-Auto: I set either the shutter or aperture and the camera sets the other two variables
Program The camera sets all three
Auto: The camera sets all three plus it will pop up flash if it feels necessary.

Did you consider the possible use of the term 'Semi-Manual' Trev?

[Tronhard]

Did you consider the possible use of the term 'Semi-Manual' Trev?

I semi-considered it! LOL!!

[Dave Humphries]

Personally, I prefer to always retain control of two sides of the exposure triangle (i.e. excluding flash*) and keep an eye on what the meter/camera is doing with the third.
* flash power (and distance) adds a fourth side to the exposure equation, making a square

IOW
I'll fix ISO if using A (Av) or S (Tv).
If I use Auto-ISO (and I do), it will be in Manual mode, so I have control of both aperture and shutter speed, but the benefit of quick reaction to light changes by the meter.
In all 3 cases above, I'll obviously use EC to offset exposure up/down when necessary, very occasionally changing the metering mode (Matrix/Centre-weighted/Spot) if that is helpful.

If the light isn't variable, then I will switch to 'Full Manual'; and fix the ISO too - e.g. if I don't want the meter/camera second guessing exposure frame by frame when all that has changed is the ratio of lights to darks visible to the sensor depending upon my zoom, framing and/or focus point, which can lead to inconsistent exposures of essentially the same subject and lighting.

Personally, I don't want the camera to be changing two things at once, so I do not use Auto-ISO with either of the other semi-auto modes - by same token, I don't (now**) use P mode or Auto.

** but I did initially, until I learnt more, then transitioned to using A (Av), so I had control of aperture for DoF) and ISO (for noise) and I kept an eye on shutter speed and manually set ISO to get that in the range I wanted. I found this is what taught me exposure, but it isn't the only way, each of us are different.

The only other time I'll use P or Auto is when handed an unfamiliar camera whose controls I don't know my way around.

Cheers, Dave

[Mike Buckley]

When I look at the controls for my cameras my personal rating of them as follows:

I've never taken the time to rate the various combinations of settings and that's for two reasons. The first is that I don't understand why doing so would be helpful to me; instead, I concentrate on understanding the advantages and disadvantages of the various options related to the various shooting situation. The second reason is that I think of the distinction between manual and automatic with regard to photography very much like the distinction between being pregant or not; the camera is either set to use an automated function to determine the exposure or it ain't.