Working with Local Photographer for Improvement?

[TheBigE]

After reflecting over the year, I realized how much improvement I saw after taking a Photography Workshop. For me it was some of the best money and time I have spent so far in Photography. Do not get me wrong, online courses, youtube, and subscription services (KelbyOne) have also been helpful but I really saw some significant improvements in the way I approached photography after some in person instructions. (Workshop)

I have decided to approach a local photographer whose work I enjoy and also is in line with my interests. (Travel, Landscape and Street Photography) He runs workshops in Europe and has a local Gallery in town. From the outside it appears to me that he might be a good fit for helping me reach my goals. He has experience and background in photography and likely some ability to instruct.

I reached out to him to discuss the idea. For now it is only basic communication and concerns about time constraints on both parties. However, we have agreed to meet to discuss goals and ideas. No commitment at this time on either party, just the agreement to explore the options.

I have my ideas of where I think I need to focus and certainly those will be part of the conversation, but I am also eager to hear his opinion on some of my work and how he sees it could be improved.

The whole concept is a bit daunting and unknown to me at this point. I was wondering if anyone else has done anything like this - any advice? It seems that sometimes these situation arise more organically, but I am hoping that my initiative in taking these steps will also result in some positive gain.

Thanks
Erik

[rpcrowe]

Erik...

I went to a presentation at a local camera store by a supposedly "well-known" travel photographer who leads "photo tours" to various places in the world. I was able to speak to some folks who had joined one of these "photo tours". Apparently, the photographer simply attached his small group onto a "regular" tourist tour. The person who had joined the tour was quite positive and remarked that the photographer helped her with such things as shutter speeds and f/stops so she could come home with well exposed photos.

My reason for bringing this up is that whatever photo instruction we purchase (with our time and/or money) it needs to be at the level that we need, not too advanced and not too basic.

My only reason for going on a photo tour would be if the tour gained me access to areas that would not be available to me alone...

However, I am sure that there are other folks who might benefit from basic instruction...

I belong to several "camera clubs" and we go out on shoots. Usually we meet someplace and then can split up and go our own ways. Sometimes we have access to areas which would not be accessible or which I did not know about: like this area of shooting the Blue Angels training flights in El Centro, California.



We post our images and it is nice to learn how other photographers interpreted the shoot.

We have no actual meetings and there are no dues...

[Manfred M]

Erik - while this can be a very valuable learning mode, it is one that needs to be approached with a bit of caution, While I agree with where Richard is coming from on a skill level, the other match has to be one a more personal level and the photographer's mindset, personality and approach has to match your own needs.

The other issue I have found with mentors and teachers at all levels is that the photographer needs to be able to share his or her knowledge. There are people out there (and this does not only apply to photographers) that are natural teachers and can explain things in an understandable fashion. Others know how to get excellent results, but do so in a way that works for them, but cannot explain how they do it to others. I have heard it said that some of the star athletes around tried to turn to coaching after they retired, but failed miserably for this reason.

If the photographer in question has done this type of mentoring before, then you should have a reasonable chance of success. If he or she has not, then perhaps things will not work out quite as well for you. Unfortunately, being a good photographer does not necessarily make you a good teacher.

[John 2]

Although I'm thinking of re joining my local club in the new year, I'm not a member of a club at the moment. This is mainly because the weekly meeting can get a bit repetitive in terms of subject matter. However, I would be the first to acknowledge that most of what I have learned over the years has come from other photographers being willing to give me time and pass on what they know as I have needed it or was ready for it. For me, the club environment is what's allowed that to happen and apart from club subs. it's been cost free. Apart from CinC (of course), the other learning forum for me has been participation in in national and international competitions. It's not the competition aspect as such that has counted, more that it exposed me to a broad spectrum of work and ideas and consequently, I believe it has contributed to my development and outlook.

BTW Richard, that is a stonking good capture.

[LePetomane]

I have taken two workshops from a guy in Grand Marais, Minnesota. I really like his work and have found him to be a good teacher. Before the workshops he would give me assignments to read up on so that I would be familiar to the concepts. For me it was well worth it. Even the winter session in zero degree weather was fun. What I found was the more preparation I did the more I got out of it.

[rpcrowe]

Although I'm thinking of re joining my local club in the new year, I'm not a member of a club at the moment. This is mainly because the weekly meeting can get a bit repetitive in terms of subject matter. However, I would be the first to acknowledge that most of what I have learned over the years has come from other photographers being willing to give me time and pass on what they know as I have needed it or was ready for it. For me, the club environment is what's allowed that to happen and apart from club subs. it's been cost free. Apart from CinC (of course), the other learning forum for me has been participation in in national and international competitions. It's not the competition aspect as such that has counted, more that it exposed me to a broad spectrum of work and ideas and consequently, I believe it has contributed to my development and outlook.

BTW Richard, that is a stonking good capture.

There are some clubs that do more meetings and less photography... The clubs (and there are several) with which I am affiliated are really informal affairs and actually have no formal meetings.

As I mentioned, the advantage of this type of club is that they have numerous outings. I could easily go on more than one shoot a week. They also often have the pull to get the club members into areas in which they might not be welcome as individuals. As an example, during the horse racing season at Del Mar, California, we could take advantage of being invited into the paddock area to shoot the "other side" of horse racing.

I was able to get some quite decent shots of the Navy Blue Angels at their practice session at their home base of El Centro California. There are hay bales at the end of the runway, just off the base, from which close-up shots can easily be attained. I didn't even know that this place existed. It is a far better vantage point than shooting at an airshow because you are a lot closer to the action. I actually, didn't climb these hay bales because i am a bit to old for that kind of activity. Instead, I shot from the ground level.



I wasn't worried about falling off the hay bales. I was worried about the sudden stop at the end of the fall.

Here are some more of the shots I got during the practice sessions...
https://rpcrowe.smugmug.com/Blue-Ang...gqg9/i-Pt8xRrd

It was this photo outing that convinced me that the 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS II lens was what I needed (WANTED). I was shooting these images with a 300mm f/4L IS prime and would have liked both a wider and a more telephoto capability. I plan to attend the practice session next year with my new lens...

We often learn about photo opportunities from our clubs. The clubs are now collecting information on the best places from which to shoot Christmas Lights in our area...

One club is getting together to travel to the Bosque Del Apache Wildlife Refuge in New Mexico to shoot the flocks of Sand Hill Cranes and other wild fowl.

[Shadowman]

I've attended a few and it depends on location and time of day. If like Richard and its attached to a tour group, challenges may be few if time of day is early or midday, if its a night shoot/ tour then it might br worthwhile. I attended one in subzero weather at Niagara Falls and the best advice given was lets wrap this up. Lenses iced over, tripod froze in place but I did get one decent shot that night.

[rpcrowe]

As John mentioned, challenges photographing with a regular tour group can be time of day and the groups need to move on to other venues. My wife scheduled us on a bus tour in Athens. I was shooting the Evazone Guards at the Greek Parliament building when the change of guard began.



Unfortunately for me, the tour bus began leaving and I missed the change of guards...

I also didn't have enough time to get the exact shot I wanted at Tienanmen Square. Beijing...



I wanted a head and shoulders portrait of the sentry with the portrait of Chairman Mao over his shoulder. No time to get t though!

[Saorsa]

My local photo club is extremely informal. We do participate in statewide competitions via the F3C and a couple of national comps like the Glennie and PSA Nature competitions.

Our dues are $10 per year which is peanuts but we use to buy a projector, postage and materials for print comps, a screen calibrator to share, etc.

We don't really have officers, just folks who volunteer, a meeting MC/facilitator, Comp coordinator for prints and another for digital competitions. I make badges.

When somebody finds a shooting opportunity they bring it up at a meeting and folks agree where to meet and carpool. If there is a fair turnout somebody asks for pics from the trip.

They don't always end up on the website but after every trip shots are compared and commented on. Always low key and friendly. Skill levels range from Pro (retired) to absolute beginners. We've actually had field trips to the Venice Rookery specifically to help folks with point and shoot superzooms.

We have folks who are absolute wizards at photoshop and others who deal in camera fundamentals.

I think it helps that we are old and confident in our own abilities and the directions we are taking with our photography.

[Dave Humphries]

I belong to a photo group run on similar lines to Brian's, but here in UK.

Membership is very small and about half those are P&S or iPad users with little photographic knowledge - and that's why they come. They are assisted by the few members with DSLRs who are all willing to share their know how in a manner that's relevant for the kit they are using to capture images on.

We meet once a month, alternating month-by-month between an outing (which usually musters around 5-7 people) and a cosy informal 'show and analyse' of the previous outing's shots (on HDTV), plus a theory or demo segment on a specific topic by one of the members. All very friendly and almost like a 'real world CiC' in terms of the mix of people attending.

Given the vast range of kit and abilities, we don't do competitions or organise photo sessions with models, instead going out to chat and shoot or occasionally to chat and attend an exhibition - although weather permitting, some shooting usually occurs on way to or from, regardless.



I did attend (as a birthday gift) a photographer organised trip to a UK wildlife place to shoot bats.
He was quite good, a group six were taken round the enclosures to learn how to use fill flash in their wildlife shooting and he was frequently checking how we were all doing and giving advice and encouragement when needed - his motto was, "we're not here to take great images, we're here to learn and practice how to take such images", relevant due to the fact we only had public access, so had to contend with enclosure glass/mesh/fences or messy backgrounds - but getting the subject exposed well without looking 'flashed' was the aim of the game.

Cheers, Dave

[Saorsa]

While in the UK last year I had an opportunity to visit the Tenterden Camera Club in Kent and found it to be very newby friendly and supportive.

[TheBigE]

Thanks for everyone's feedback on this topic - I know a bit late in updating my post. It does sound like Camera Clubs are also a good option, and I may have to see if I can find one in my mother language at some point.

Update - Well I emailed a local photographer and we agreed upon a date and time. He asked me to remind him the week before, to which I did send him a reminder. For full disclosure, I also sent him a email saying I needed to meet a bit later than originally planned due to family commitments on that day. (1400 vs 1100). I sent him a link to some of my work (this was a big step for me)....but no reply from his end. Nothing saying he was good with the time, etc.

Sure I could have called or showed up unannounced, but I felt this to be a bit of a sign to wait a bit on the topic. There are numerous reasons why there was no response and perhaps after the Holidays I will take it up again if so inclined.

[Mike Buckley]

He asked me to remind him the week before

That would have been a huge red flag for me. It indicates that he's not committed to the relationship, that he's disorganized or both.

[Shadowman]

That would have been a huge red flag for me. It indicates that he's not committed to the relationship, that he's disorganized or both.

Mike,

In college in an international business course the concept of time across cultures was mentioned, I presumably thought that adherence to time would be a European concept but apparently it is not. Also, while it looks like Erik agreed to a particular schedule, it was he who wanted to alter the appointment; although family obligations do sometimes take precedence would you as the mentor be a bit upset if original appointment was not honored?

[Manfred M]

+1 to Mike's comment.

The problem (from the photographer's standpoint) is that the relationship is very much one-way. You get to learn from him, but what is in it for him? Being a mentor requires time, effort and dedication for little or no return, Unless he has reached a point in his career he wishes to pass on his knowledge to someone, it does not seem like a good fit.

A commercial photographer that I know, who lives in another city, invited me to come see his studio a few years ago. I end up visiting that city 3 or 4 times a year and whenever I reminded him of his offer, he is always too busy those days I'm in town. This is a case where he made the suggestion for the visit, not me. I've stopped asking....

[Mike Buckley]

Also, while it looks like Erik agreed to a particular schedule, it was he who wanted to alter the appointment; although family obligations do sometimes take precedence would you as the mentor be a bit upset if original appointment was not honored?

I wouldn't be upset in the least if either person wants to change plans, if that desire is communicated at a reasonable point of time considering the circumstances that drove the need for change, and if both people happily agree to the changed time. Just the opposite, if all that happened, I would feel very good at that point about the relationship.

I definitely would not feel good about a relationship that begins with one person requiring the other person to remind him of anything about the agreement as happened in this case.

[Shadowman]

I wouldn't be upset in the least if either person wants to change plans, if that desire is communicated at a reasonable point of time considering the circumstances that drove the need for change, and if both people happily agree to the changed time. Just the opposite, if all that happened, I would feel very good at that point about the relationship.

I definitely would not feel good about a relationship that begins with one person requiring the other person to remind him of anything about the agreement as happened in this case.

Mike,

The request or reminder may have been simply a way of confirming the appointment or the mentor may not believe in appointment calendars. It'll be interesting to see what follows.

[Manfred M]

In college in an international business course the concept of time across cultures was mentioned, I presumably thought that adherence to time would be a European concept but apparently it is not.

I think that, like any high level statement, it has to be taken with a "grain of salt". Europe is not a single culture and even within countries there are significant cultural differences. People in big cities can have different cultural attitudes than nearby villages. If you travel to Northern Italy, I think you will find that the people there share attitudes that are closer to those shared by their Swiss or Austrian neighbours than their southern countrymen (I'm not singling out Italy, by the way, the same can be found in many other European countries).

[Shadowman]

I think that, like any high level statement, it has to be taken with a "grain of salt". Europe is not a single culture and even within countries there are significant cultural differences. People in big cities can have different cultural attitudes than nearby villages. If you travel to Northern Italy, I think you will find that the people there share attitudes that are closer to those shared by their Swiss or Austrian neighbours than their southern countrymen (I'm not singling out Italy, by the way, the same can be found in many other European countries).

Manfred,

I agree, just pointing out that we may be applying a western sense of time, punctuality, scheduling to encompass everyone's belief. An example, I frequent various conventions for a particular market, in the U.S. attendees are free to visit any company's booth without appointment, when attending a convention in Germany we were told not to visit vendor's booths without making an appointment prior to the show and not before receiving acknowledgment of acceptance. So our group attended the show and followed the rules, however as the show started to wind down vendors started visiting each others booths just to say hello.

[TheBigE]

The culture of time is widely varied across Europe, Africa and the Middle East. I cover all these areas and can fully understand the differences. Generally in Germany it is expected that the times you keep are kept. For example, today I was two hours late in turning in company car and had three phone calls and two emails. Despite the fact that there was nobody waiting for the car, simply it was not turned when I said. This is the culture here.

I cannot say why the Photographer needed a reminder, or even if my requested time change put him off from meeting. I know he runs a Gallery and is busy, especially this time of year.

One could say that mentoring is just not that important to him based on this singular result. One could say that he is not organized again based on this result. Or even that my mail was lost in his SPAM Folder (unlikley as it was a reply to his previous email). Bottom line is that I do not know.

I was thinking, that if mentoring was something he wanted to pursue, then at some point he may reach out to me when things calm down a bit....if not I may consider reaching out to him again just to make sure that he received my email.

For me - I made an effort and maybe it has failed, so be it...but I tried. I may try again in the future...at this moment we are in a holding pattern to see what happens.

Probably best just to post here on CiC for feedback....