Assistance Needed

[KimC]

Hi everyone. Someone I owed a favor to, asked me to photograph his Mom's 70 B-day party. It will be in a restaurant that is rather dark, and there are 2 small rooms that will hold in total about 35 people. I'm rather stressed about this as it's not my usual cup of tea. In addition, many of the attendees will be dark skinned. I have been studying my flash and practicing the past three weeks. I am trying to decide what lens to bring. I did scout the facility and due to the size of room the party will be held in, I was going to bring my 35mm prime and use my 24-70mm as my primary lens. Is my decision appropriate? Any other considerations? Thank you

[NorthernFocus]

If you're not practiced with flash you may be better off just shooting your D3s at high ISO. For prints up to 8x10 and for web use I've had good results with my D4 indoors sans flash. You can concentrate on shooting rather than fussing with equipment that you're not familiar with.

[KimC]

Thanks for responding Dan, I have thought about that, and I added the Nikon 750 to my bag which is very good at high ISO (as I will be selling the 810).

If you're not practiced with flash you may be better off just shooting your D3s at high ISO. For prints up to 8x10 and for web use I've had good results with my D4 indoors sans flash. You can concentrate on shooting rather than fussing with equipment that you're not familiar with.

[Geoff F]

I agree with your reluctance and photographing this sort of scene always makes me nervous.

However, 24-70 lens sounds a good idea. Maybe you can get increased Iso to work without excessive noise or problems with wide apertures and slow shutter speeds. But also look for potential issues between bright highlights and dense shadows. Never easy and it always pays to take a few quick test shots as soon as you arrive.

Flash tends to be my default option, but this also has many drawbacks. In theory, bouncing the flash off a ceiling, possibly a wall, is the established trick, however, high ceilings, dark paintwork, etc can work against you. Also, I have had too many occasions when I have made a mistake with the flash angle so the result has been a directly overhead flash point, or behind the intended subject, which has caused dark faces, sometimes with dark ringed eyes.

That option is suitable for carefully posed shots where you have time to do a test shot and vary your settings but otherwise, be careful.

I tend to treat these situations in much the same way as my wildlife flash shots. Set the camera in manual settings mode to suit the scene as closely as possible then just use flash as a little bit of additional fill flash pointing direcly at the main subject. Vary the auto flash output compensation as required. Once you get the hang of this you should be able to judge each shot in the same way as you would vary normal exposure compensation. Beware of reflective backgrounds such as mirrors, etc.

Using flash and moving around with a large flash unit on top of the camera can make some subjects nervous or cause others to over pose; so either way you lose those nicely relaxed natural shots. I try to quietly lurk around while holding my camera tightly against my body until a situation starts to develop; then quickly raise the camera without any fuss and get the shot.

Whatever you do, this isn't likely to be an easy assignment.

[rpcrowe]

Kim, my favorite rig for walk around event type photography is the Canon 17-55mm f/2.8 IS lens on a 7D or 7D2 crop camera. I will use a hotshoe flash at a relatively high ISO of around 320 or even 640. I was able to shoot up to around ISO 800 even with my older Canon 30D and 40D cameras and can certainly use that level ISO with my Canon 7D2. I use NIK Dfine for noise reduction...

Note: Before Canon came out with the 17-55mm f/2.8 IS lens, I used an EF 24-70mm f/2.8L Mark-1. The 24mm was wide enough even on a crop camera. One thing that I try not to do is to shoot people from up close with a very wide focal length. Most people's faces suffer from the distortion that type of shooting produces. At it's widest focal length, the 24mm on a crop camera was a 38.4 equivalent which was fine for shooting people.

I modify the flash with a Joe Demb flash diffuser pro which will allow very decent lighting in either the horizontal or vertical camera positions...



The adjustable angle Flip-It portion of he Flash Diffuser Pro can compensate for shooting in areas in which there is no ceiling off which to bounce or when the ceiling is quite dark.



http://www.dembflashproducts.com/pro...lash-diffuser/

I also enjoy using a Stroboframe-type camera-flip bracket which keeps the flash directly over my camera in either the horizontal or vertical shooting positions.



The above illustration shows the camera positions using a bracket in which either the camera or flash can flip. My favorite bracket has a solid top bar.



I like this one because I never flip my flash and as such, the solid bar makes an excellent handle to carry atound the rig during a shoot.

Shooting indoors, I can use the built-in flash of my 7D or 7D2 to trip the hotshoe flash on the bracket. If I am going to shoot outdoors in the bright sun, I will trip my flash using an off-camera sync cord, since the built-in flash is not totally foolproof when shooting outdoors...

Of course, it goes without saying that shooting in RAW would be the best way to capture your images in this type if situation...

[Shadowman]

Kim,

One other thing to consider is the positioning of the 35 people, will there be multiple rows, will some members be standing? Try to visualize how you'll space people and if using flash consider whether the flash will reach members in the back row.

[KimC]

Yes, I tend to be a control freak, and I'll have to relinquish all control in this situation.

I plan too get there early so I can get my camera set-up and take some test shots. If it ends up being brighter than expected, and not excessively shadowy, I will prob see what an image looks like without flash. The place was a mustard yellow... so that's not a plus either .

Thanks for sharing the suggestion about how you do wildlife shots. That makes perfect since and will prob be what I end up doing.

Due to the cramped space, I am concerned it's going to be like a crowded bar with people all jammed together. I have been problem solving scenarios in my head all day. I'm a good lurker, so hopefully I will have room to do that.

Thanks for your thoughts Geoff -- I try to keep thinking, if I wasn't agreeable to help them, all they would have are cell phone pics, as they certainly wouldn't have hired someone. So, it's an opportunity for me to take on the challenge and make the best of it... I had a mentor who scared the heck out of me about flash... it's time to get over that!

I agree with your reluctance and photographing this sort of scene always makes me nervous.

However, 24-70 lens sounds a good idea. Maybe you can get increased Iso to work without excessive noise or problems with wide apertures and slow shutter speeds. But also look for potential issues between bright highlights and dense shadows. Never easy and it always pays to take a few quick test shots as soon as you arrive.

Flash tends to be my default option, but this also has many drawbacks. In theory, bouncing the flash off a ceiling, possibly a wall, is the established trick, however, high ceilings, dark paintwork, etc can work against you. Also, I have had too many occasions when I have made a mistake with the flash angle so the result has been a directly overhead flash point, or behind the intended subject, which has caused dark faces, sometimes with dark ringed eyes.

That option is suitable for carefully posed shots where you have time to do a test shot and vary your settings but otherwise, be careful.

I tend to treat these situations in much the same way as my wildlife flash shots. Set the camera in manual settings mode to suit the scene as closely as possible then just use flash as a little bit of additional fill flash pointing direcly at the main subject. Vary the auto flash output compensation as required. Once you get the hang of this you should be able to judge each shot in the same way as you would vary normal exposure compensation. Beware of reflective backgrounds such as mirrors, etc.

Using flash and moving around with a large flash unit on top of the camera can make some subjects nervous or cause others to over pose; so either way you lose those nicely relaxed natural shots. I try to quietly lurk around while holding my camera tightly against my body until a situation starts to develop; then quickly raise the camera without any fuss and get the shot.

Whatever you do, this isn't likely to be an easy assignment.

[KimC]

Thanks Richard. So it sounds like my 24-70 is the right choice. I had planned to set my ISO on 800 (that's what I have been practicing with it on as well). My camera can handle low light well. The software I use also has good noise reduction. I was planning to keep a distance from people when shooting as I will prob need my aperture a bit wider than I would like... so want to manage DOF issues. If I can't keep a distance due to space issues, I will keep your suggestions in mind.

Kim, my favorite rig for walk around event type photography is the Canon 17-55mm f/2.8 IS lenson a 7D or 7D2 crop camera. I will use a hotshoe flash at a relatively high ISO of around 320 or even 640. I was able to shoot up to around ISO 800 even with my older Canon 30D and 40D cameras and can certainly use that level ISO with my Canon 7D2. I use NIK Dfine for noise reduction...

Note: Before Canon came out with the 17-55mm f/2.8 IS lens, I used an EF 24-70mm f/2.8L Mark-1. The 24mm was wide enough even on a crop camera. One thing that I try not to do is to shoot people from up close with a very wide focal length. Most people's faces suffer from the distortion that type of shooting produces. At it's widest focal length, the 24mm on a crop camera was a 38.4 equivalent which was fine for shooting people.

I have a Rogue Flashbender. I haven't decided if I am going to use it yet -- need to play around with it tonight. Thanks for sharing what you use and how it's benefited you.

I modify the flash with a Joe Demb flash diffuser pro which will allow very decent lighting in either the horizontal or vertical camera positions...

Absolutely and always! :-) Thank you for the help!

Of course, it goes without saying that shooting in RAW would be the best way to capture your images in this type if situation...

[KimC]

Ooooohhhhh John... When I scouted this place, I was hoping I would feel better after seeing it. That wasn't the case. It's tight -- there will not be any group shots up there -- tables are all jammed in. I do plan to pull people aside and photograph smaller groups so they have a record of who attended. I see myself standing on a chair so I can be above everyone to get the mom's initial reaction.

Kim,

One other thing to consider is the positioning of the 35 people, will there be multiple rows, will some members be standing? Try to visualize how you'll space people and if using flash consider whether the flash will reach members in the back row.

[Dave Humphries]

Hi Kim,

In my experience, the ambient lighting is very unlikely to be shining on all your subjects with intensity and from the direction(s) as you would wish, meaning some folks may well be grossly underexposed.

Wall and ceiling colours permitting, in a small room, I'd twist the flash round 180 degrees, then tilt it up 30 - 45 degrees - so it bounces off the wall and ceiling behind me - to avoid the 'racoon eyes' problem you can get when bouncing forward/upwards in a small location as Geoff mentions.
It also has the advantage that it doesn't directly flash in to your subject's eyes.
In a small room with reasonably light toned walls, an on-camera strobe should have enough power despite the increased flash to bounce + bounce to subject distance involved when doing it this way.
If the wall colour doesn't suit, consider whether a large reflector could be put up temporarily?

The downside is that if mounted on camera hotshoe, it needs re-angling if you change from portrait to landscape. Of course, using a bracket like Richard's posts solves that problem, if your grip and wrists can handle the extra weight.

Just some thoughts, Dave

[DanK]

I agree with Dave; it's unlikely that the ambient light will be either bright enough or positioned well. Overhead lighting will leave faces in shadow.

That's the lens I would take, given that you are using a FF camera. Shorter than 24mm makes faces look weird anyway.

Re bounce flash: most often, I use the setup Richard described (the regular Demb card, not the big pro, with a diffuser). At such close quarters, a vertical bounce should be fine; there shouldn't be any need to tilt it forward. Therefore, you can mount the reflector on the side of the flash, which let's you turn it 90 degrees for portrait orientation. The Demb site shows this.

On rare occasions, I use a bracket, which gets the flash farther from the lens.

Bouncing, as mentioned, is affected by the color of the surface against which you bounce. If the colors are OK, you can bounce off a wall behind you by swiveling the flash and tilting it to aim back over your shoulder. The shot below was done that way, with the flash pointed back over my left shoulder (with no diffuser or bounce card). This is a common approach by event photographers, but I don't often use it.



Re ISO: if you are using TTL flash, ISO (at least with a Canon system) has the effect of controlling the use of ambient light. The lower the ISO, the darker the background. I find that a very comfortable starting point is ISO 400, 1/60, f/4.5. Wider open than that, and it is hard to get enough of a face in focus at that distance. However, if the place is really dark, that might not be optimal. I recommend that you try a few ISOs to see what works best in that setting.

Although this might be obvious: take a neutral gray card, and take a shot whenever the lighting changes much. I find that this can actually loosen up the atmosphere--you can make it almost a joke, having someone pose with the card.

Finally, in events like this I have I have found that the number of people in the crowd who worry as much as I do about the quality of the photos is usually approximately zero. Other than me, that is. In my experience, people don't treat things like this the way they do a wedding or formal portraits. Of course, I don't know the people, but in my experience, I have worried too much.

Good luck.

[KimC]

Hi Dave. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. Yes, I agree. I set my husband up in a mock situation tonight, and with no flash, his face was way under exposed even at high ISO. Flash made him look much better.

The walls are the color of Dijon mustard. :-( I used the Rogue Flashbender on my husband tonight in case I don't have a ceiling to bounce off -- I have the soft box version so the flash is point up anyways - which hits a silver reflector on the top of the soft box. So, that's the set-up I plan to go with tomorrow

Regretfully, I could not use a bracket like Richards due to limitations with my hand/arm.

The upside of the situation is that I have learned a lot over the past few weeks and I think it will enhance my creativity in the long run.

Hi Kim,

In my experience, the ambient lighting is very unlikely to be shining on all your subjects with intensity and from the direction(s) as you would wish, meaning some folks may well be grossly underexposed.

Wall and ceiling colours permitting, in a small room, I'd twist the flash round 180 degrees, then tilt it up 30 - 45 degrees - so it bounces off the wall and ceiling behind me - to avoid the 'racoon eyes' problem you can get when bouncing forward/upwards in a small location as Geoff mentions.
It also has the advantage that it doesn't directly flash in to your subject's eyes.
In a small room with reasonably light toned walls, an on-camera strobe should have enough power despite the increased flash to bounce + bounce to subject distance involved when doing it this way.
If the wall colour doesn't suit, consider whether a large reflector could be put up temporarily?

The downside is that if mounted on camera hotshoe, it needs re-angling if you change from portrait to landscape. Of course, using a bracket like Richard's posts solves that problem, if your grip and wrists can handle the extra weight.

Just some thoughts, Dave

[KimC]

Thanks for commenting Dan. Yes, I agree - see my response to Dave based on my scenario with my husband tonight.

I agree with Dave; it's unlikely that the ambient light will be either bright enough or positioned well. Overhead lighting will leave faces in shadow.

Thanks Dan.

That's the lens I would take, given that you are using a FF camera. Shorter than 24mm makes faces look weird anyway.

I'm going to use my Rogue Flashbender soft box after setting up a similar scenario with my husband as the model tonight. My response to Dave contains a but more info about this. Regretfully, I couldn't handle Richard's set-up due to arm and significant hand limitations.

Re bounce flash: most often, I use the setup Richard described (the regular Demb card, not the big pro, with a diffuser). At such close quarters, a vertical bounce should be fine; there shouldn't be any need to tilt it forward. Therefore, you can mount the reflector on the side of the flash, which let's you turn it 90 degrees for portrait orientation. The Demb site shows this.

On rare occasions, I use a bracket, which gets the flash farther from the lens.

This is an awesome tip! Thank you. If the opportunity presents itself tomorrow, I will be trying this for sure. Thank you for sharing the image -- it looks great and so natural.

The walls in the room are mustard yellow. :-(

Bouncing, as mentioned, is affected by the color of the surface against which you bounce. If the colors are OK, you can bounce off a wall behind you by swiveling the flash and tilting it to aim back over your shoulder. The shot below was done that way, with the flash pointed back over my left shoulder (with no diffuser or bounce card). This is a common approach by event photographers, but I don't often use it.

Yes using TTL. I have played with ISO and I did't find adjusting it controlled the ambient light. I would like to keep my shutter speed at 100 (to prevent shake) and I agree no lower than f/4.5. Do plan to get there early and experiment.

I do have a gray card in my case. thank you

Re ISO: if you are using TTL flash, ISO (at least with a Canon system) has the effect of controlling the use of ambient light. The lower the ISO, the darker the background. I find that a very comfortable starting point is ISO 400, 1/60, f/4.5. Wider open than that, and it is hard to get enough of a face in focus at that distance. However, if the place is really dark, that might not be optimal. I recommend that you try a few ISOs to see what works best in that setting.

Although this might be obvious: take a neutral gray card, and take a shot whenever the lighting changes much. I find that this can actually loosen up the atmosphere--you can make it almost a joke, having someone pose with the card.

Oh how I agree Dan. It's really important to me that I do a good job... so I am my worst critic. I had a hard time getting him to tell me when his mom arrives and in what room the "surprise" will take place. To me that says, photos are not that important to him/his wife. So, I am going to look at it like an adventure, put a picture of my brother in my bag (since he now watches over me as an angel), have a little fun, learn a lot, and give them I hope some respectable images.

Thanks for the assistance.

Finally, in events like this I have I have found that the number of people in the crowd who worry as much as I do about the quality of the photos is usually approximately zero. Other than me, that is. In my experience, people don't treat things like this the way they do a wedding or formal portraits. Of course, I don't know the people, but in my experience, I have worried too much.

Good luck.

[Mike Buckley]

You're fortunate to have such an accommodating husband. I know because I have such an accommodating wife.

I'm sure you've already thought about the fact that using a flash that is pointed behind you is very risky in a crowded room; the people behind you won't like being blinded by your flash.

[rpcrowe]

Since the mustard color walls and ceiling might very well mess up the color balance, I suggest that you use a white balance target and then balance the color in Adobe Camera Raw by using the white balance eye dropper.

You might already know this tip but, I am going to mention it in case you don't. The way to get the most standing people grouped into the tightest space is to have the middle person stand with shoulders parallel to the camera body. The person on the right (image left) stands at about a 45 degree angle with right shoulder towards the camera. The rest of the people line up as close to each other as the feel comfortable all at 45 degrees with the right shoulders toward the camera. The persons on the center subject's left (image right) will stand at a 45 degree angle with left shoulders towards the camera. This will allow you to get quite a few more people in a group shot that is confined by space.

Arranging some chairs in front of the group will allow more people in the shot.

Having another person watching the group will ensure that no one is looking away or placing "Devil horn fingers" over someone's head

BTW: If you use a flash, make sure you have fresh batteries installed and an extra backup set available. I hate waiting for my lash to recycle. Shooting at a high ISO and using a relatively large aperture will allow your flash to recycle quicker (if you are shooting with an auto exposure flash unit).

[DanK]

I'm sure you've already thought about the fact that using a flash that is pointed behind you is very risky in a crowded room; the people behind you won't like being blinded by your flash.

Good point, and an important omission from my post. It's a technique to use when you are between the wall and the people, and reasonably close to the wall.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[george013]

T
.......
Yes using TTL. I have played with ISO and I did't find adjusting it controlled the ambient light. I would like to keep my shutter speed at 100 (to prevent shake) and I agree no lower than f/4.5. Do plan to get there early and experiment.
.......

Are you sure? You must shoot in M.

George

[KimC]

He is Mike -- and we are lucky.

Thanks for that reminder Mike...

You're fortunate to have such an accommodating husband. I know because I have such an accommodating wife.

I'm sure you've already thought about the fact that using a flash that is pointed behind you is very risky in a crowded room; the people behind you won't like being blinded by your flash.

[KimC]

I have the cards, but I hadn't heard of a white balance target before - easier than the cards. I like that and will have to put that on the santa list.

Thanks for that tip Richard - appreciate it. The devil horns comment made me laugh. I hadn't even thought about the funny business that might go on. My goal is to chill... and go with the flow.

Extra flash batteries are in my case already as well as an extra camera and camera batteries. :-)

Since the mustard color walls and ceiling might very well mess up the color balance, I suggest that you use a white balance target and then balance the color in Adobe Camera Raw by using the white balance eye dropper.

You might already know this tip but, I am going to mention it in case you don't. The way to get the most standing people grouped into the tightest space is to have the middle person stand with shoulders parallel to the camera body. The person on the right (image left) stands at about a 45 degree angle with right shoulder towards the camera. The rest of the people line up as close to each other as the feel comfortable all at 45 degrees with the right shoulders toward the camera. The persons on the center subject's left (image right) will stand at a 45 degree angle with left shoulders towards the camera. This will allow you to get quite a few more people in a group shot that is confined by space.

Arranging some chairs in front of the group will allow more people in the shot.

Having another person watching the group will ensure that no one is looking away or placing "Devil horn fingers" over someone's head

BTW: If you use a flash, make sure you have fresh batteries installed and an extra backup set available. I hate waiting for my lash to recycle. Shooting at a high ISO and using a relatively large aperture will allow your flash to recycle quicker (if you are shooting with an auto exposure flash unit).

[KimC]

Yes, I plan to shot this event in M... The light should be consistent.

Are you sure? You must shoot in M.

George