Night Photography, Noise, and the Canon 7DII

[Thlayle]

Night photography (all of it, including astrophotography) is a favorite with me.

I shoot with Canon T2i (550D) but I have been interested for a long time in full frame Canons. I am not switching brands at this point, so if I get anything it will be a Canon camera.

I have been looking at the 7DII because of it's reputation for low noise performance (and it's pricing). It seems to be more of a sports/action camera though.

My question: what camera in the Canon line would best suit my interests, both with and without budget considerations.

I have a lot of experience with my current camera so I am not seeking advice on how to apply it to night shooting, just ideas about other options out there...

[Donald]

Randy - a 7D is not a full-frame camera.

It does have terrific noise performance.

It was pushed by the marketing people as the tool for sports/action, but that is just marketing. It will, as with any other camera, take good pictures of whatever you point it at, provided you take time to learn how to use it properly.

Why are you interested in a full-frame camera?

[Thlayle]

Yes, thanks for mentioning that, Donald. I forgot to mention that when I was posting. It is a crop frame sensor, but it caught my attention anyway.

It's that noise performance that really is drawing my interest. Otherwise, full frame is the direction I was thinking I would have to go.

[DanK]

I do a fair amount of night photography and have used both crop-sensor and full-frame Canons for it. However, I haven't compared the noise performance of the 7DII to the Canon FF cameras. I also don't do astrophotography. I do rural and urban night scenes. So, you might downweight my reactions accordingly.

For the night photography I do, sensor size doesn't much matter. It is almost all done at base ISO or slightly higher, with long exposures. The only night photograph I have done that received an award from a judge who actually knows night photography was taken with a Canon 50D, which was one of Canon's noisier crop-sensor cameras.

Where sensor size and noise became an issue for me was in extremely long exposures in hot settings. In those cases, a sensor with higher pixel density in a smaller space--a crop sensor in most cases--will overheat faster.

I currently do night photography with a Canon 5DIII, which you can probably find at a relatively low price because the 5DIV is now on the market.

50D, 2-minute exposure @ ISO 200:



5DIII, 7 minute exposure at ISO 100:

[Donald]

Obviously I don't know what your budget is, but people are making very positive noises about about the very new 5DIV.

[Thlayle]

Obviously I don't know what your budget is, but people are making very positive noises about about the very new 5DIV.

Thanks, Donald and Dan both. I appreciate the input. As i said... both with and without regard to budget.

I do a lot of long exposures at "hot" settings so maybe the 5DIII or IV...

[DanK]

Thanks, Donald and Dan both. I appreciate the input. As i said... both with and without regard to budget.

I do a lot of long exposures at "hot" settings so maybe the 5DIII or IV...

This one, another one of the same view, is a 10-minute exposure with a 50D at ISO 200 on a hot, humid night:



It's fine with respect to noise. I tried another, longer exposure that week--I now forget how long--and it was completely unusable, with noise and bands of color distortion.

The 5D III isn't Canon's lowest-noise camera; I think (not certain) that the 6D and 5DIV are both a bit better. However, it is an absolutely wonderful camera, and I find it excellent for night photography--again, with the caveat that I don't do astrophotography.

[Black Pearl]

The 'Canon' lads I know who are shooting this style of image and who are working within sensible budgets all seem to be using the 6D. It has excellent low light performance, its not too expensive and is reasonably robust.

[DanK]

The 'Canon' lads I know who are shooting this style of image and who are working within sensible budgets all seem to be using the 6D. It has excellent low light performance, its not too expensive and is reasonably robust.

The 6D is a lot cheaper. It lacks some bells and whistles--in particular, the 5DIII has a powerful and flexible AF system, while the 6D doesn't--but for this sort of photography, you don't need those bells and whistles. And the center point on the 6D can focus at somewhat lower levels of light, if I remember correctly.

[rpcrowe]

I would suggest (as I always do) that if you are considering buying a Canon camera; get a Canon Factory Refurbished camera. They are available from Canon USA and also occasionally from other vendors such as Adorama.

Ensure that the camera is a genuine Canon Factory Refurbished unit, not a camera that was returned to some vendor by a buyer, given a cursory once-over and declared "REFURBISHED". I'd be glad to share my great experiences in purchasing a 30D, a 40D, two 7D's and a 7D2 - all on the refurbished route!

[Thlayle]

I would suggest (as I always do) that if you are considering buying a Canon camera; get a Canon Factory Refurbished camera. They are available from Canon USA and also occasionally from other vendors such as Adorama.

Ensure that the camera is a genuine Canon Factory Refurbished unit, not a camera that was returned to some vendor by a buyer, given a cursory once-over and declared "REFURBISHED". I'd be glad to share my great experiences in purchasing a 30D, a 40D, two 7D's and a 7D2 - all on the refurbished route!

Thanks, Richard. I think I could go refurbished. If you have any thoughts on the differences in performance of the 6D vs 7D vs 7D2 in night shooting, I'd love to hear them.

I never thought I would be looking for another camera but after a lot of experience now with my Canon T2i, I am seriously considering something else that will perform better with long exposures and high ISOs. I am very happy with the camera I have, but it is noisy in the applications I have for it. I know that will continue to be an issue, no matter what, given what I am trying to do. Still, I think the other models are known to perform better in this context.

[Tronhard]

I have a Canon 7DII, and 80D and a 5DIII. All of them have given decent performance in low light situations, although tuning for the environment has a lot to do with that.

You asked for FF camera suggestions both with and without a budget. Partly that depends on EXACTLY the benefits you want. I know low light and grain may be issues, but how about resolution? To put it another way, what output do you want from the camera: are you going to produce very large printed images, smaller prints or images limited to electronic media (large 4k screens, HD or whatever)?

The will always be a playoff between the number of pixels and the light gathering performance but in some cases cramming pixels past a certain point is counter productive because of the limited light each receives (hence why small sensors tend to be noisy in less than optimum conditions). Obviously we are looking at FF, but there is a wide range of sensor types available in the Canon range.

The 6D is a good camera and the prices are coming down as it is fairly elderly.
The 5DMkIII is a great camera and its price is dropping because of the 5DMkIV
Both of the above have lesser pixel ratings, now we go up a notch...
The 5DMkIV is obviously the newest tech and has some awesome features, with a 30MP sensor and Digic 6+ to boot.
If you want resolution however then you might want to look at the awesome:
5DMk IIIS and the even sharper 5DMk III S-R. These come in at a hefty 50MP and the -R model has no anti-aliasing to sharping the image to the max. These last 3 bodies all seem to sit around the same price point.

[proseak]

How are you processing?

[Shadowman]

How are you processing?

Was just going to mention processing, do you (Randy) plan reduce noise in-camera, with software, or just leave it as it is captured?

[DanK]

If you shoot raw (the only way I would shoot night photography), there is no standard in-camera noise reduction; you can only apply that in processing. Canons do offer subtractive long-exposure noise reduction, which is a correction for fixed rather than random noise. It takes a dark shot after the originals and subtracts any pixels that aren't dark. It requires some patience--if you are taking 10-minute exposures, you have to wait an extra 10 minutes for each--but unlike normal noise reduction, it does not create any loss of detail. I often use this on very long exposures, but I virtually never use any other noise reduction for night photographs. If you shoot them at base ISO, there simply isn't enough random noise to require it.

Re resolution: the key question for that is how large an image you intend to produce. If you are not printing large or cropping severely, it won't matter much. My printer maxes out at 13 x 19. At its native resolution (300 DPI), that requires 5700 pixels across to avoid any up-rezzing at all.

[rpcrowe]

Noise also is greatly dependent upon correct exposure. Under exposed areas seem to show greater noise.

I use NIK Dfine (usually at default setting) when I am shooting at a high ISO...

When using Dfine, I turn off in-camera noise reduction as well as turn off noise reduction in Adobe Camera RAW (I always shoot RAW). Dfine is the first thing I will do in post processing an image shot at a high ISO.

[Thlayle]

I have a Canon 7DII, and 80D and a 5DIII. All of them have given decent performance in low light situations, although tuning for the environment has a lot to do with that.

You asked for FF camera suggestions both with and without a budget. Partly that depends on EXACTLY the benefits you want. I know low light and grain may be issues, but how about resolution? To put it another way, what output do you want from the camera: are you going to produce very large printed images, smaller prints or images limited to electronic media (large 4k screens, HD or whatever)?

The will always be a playoff between the number of pixels and the light gathering performance but in some cases cramming pixels past a certain point is counter productive because of the limited light each receives (hence why small sensors tend to be noisy in less than optimum conditions). Obviously we are looking at FF, but there is a wide range of sensor types available in the Canon range.

The 6D is a good camera and the prices are coming down as it is fairly elderly.
The 5DMkIII is a great camera and its price is dropping because of the 5DMkIV
Both of the above have lesser pixel ratings, now we go up a notch...
The 5DMkIV is obviously the newest tech and has some awesome features, with a 30MP sensor and Digic 7 to boot.
If you want resolution however then you might want to look at the awesome:
5DMk IIIS and the even sharper 5DMk III S-R. These come in at a hefty 50MP and the -R model has no anti-aliasing to sharping the image to the max. These last 3 bodies all seem to sit around the same price point.

Thanks, Trev. Great information about the cameras.

As for resolution/output, my goal is for images that are printable and of a fairly good size, at least 12x18 inches. So yes resolution is a key concern for me.

Have you tried these cameras for night photography, or even astrophotography? I am familiar with many recommendations in favor of the 5D models, but I am curious to know how the 7DII compares. What I have heard about it makes it sound really like a great in terms of low-noise output.

[Thlayle]

Dan,

Always shooting raw; wouldn't consider anything else for night shooting. I have tried using the in-camera noise reduction and was unimpressed by it. Then there's all that extra waiting!! I think it would work better for me for shots that seek to portray the night sky and landscape, as opposed to trying to capture the highly detailed views of the stars/milky way -- a common application for me.

My goal is for shots that would max out that 13x19 limit. That's about the size (there and up) I would like to achieve for printing.

I always go for the lowest ISO I can use, but night sky portrayals with the milky way in view seem to work best at higher ISOs and longer exposure times. My T2i starts getting very noisy above 400 ISO.

[Thlayle]

Was just going to mention processing, do you (Randy) plan reduce noise in-camera, with software, or just leave it as it is captured?

Thanks, John for the comment. I use the in-camera noise reduction very little (see my reply to Dan). In processing, I use either Adobe Camera Raw or Lightroom. I have thought of trying the Nik suite for this now that it is available free.

I know I can still make progress with post-processing techniques. I tend to view my T2i pretty limited though for night shooting, at least the astrophotography side of it.

[Thlayle]

Noise also is greatly dependent upon correct exposure. Under exposed areas seem to show greater noise.

I use NIK Dfine (usually at default setting) when I am shooting at a high ISO...

When using Dfine, I turn off in-camera noise reduction as well as turn off noise reduction in Adobe Camera RAW (I always shoot RAW). Dfine is the first thing I will do in post processing an image shot at a high ISO.

Thanks,Richard. I will have to try Dfine. I have not had a lot of luck with the in-camera noise reduction, at least for many of the things I am attempting.