Prints are dull

[Manfred M]

You might want to read this document on print viewing conditions that has been put out by xRite.

https://www.xritephoto.com/documents...wingNTK_EN.pdf

While a colour managed work flow should take care of getting the colours correct, viewing a print under the proper "standard" conditions does make a difference when looking at colour brightness as well. I used to have access to a MacBeth colour viewing station many years ago (as shown in this article) and judging shades under standardized conditions was important when comparing colour shades.

Another interesting diagram can be found in the same Wikipedia article I got the colour diagram from in my previous posting. It attempts to show the difference in how colours as seen on an RGB screen will turn out in print. I suspect this is similar to what you are seeing.

I remember back in the film days, some photographers I knew shot transparencies (slides) exclusively because these images were so much more brilliant looking than prints.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_space

[Polar01]

Steve, myself I never check any of those 3 boxes, I only look at that preview to see if the image is positioned correctly on the stock. As for soft proofing, I use it to the image I want to print on the stock I want to use and see what it looks like (I never say OK) I only want to see not apply. If the image looks good I back out of Soft Proofing, go to print>printer settings, select the settings I need, then make sure Photoshop manages colour, correct ICC profile is selected, then print, 95 out of 100 times no problems the other 5 just something off to my thinking others would never see it.
Now the next case, you Soft Proof and you see a drop in brightness, colour shift, image becomes dull and lifeless. So what do you do, one of 2 things, find another stock I have done this, 2 correct image for print. Now to do #2, make a duplicate of the original image, it will be to this image (duplicate) that you apply soft proofing to, make adjustments so that is appears the same as the original. Once you have do this print the DUPLICATE compare it to the original on the monitor, they should appear the same. Now save the duplicate with same file name adding the name of the paper to it, so any time you print that image again on the same paper, printer and ink combo you have it.
Now I am just going to say a little about colours that are in or out of gamut, if there are only I few small spots, myself I believe in the rule forgetttttaboutit, if it is major then correct on the duplicate. Remember colours out of gamut are colours that the printer can not produce and/or print correctly. You have an Epson P800 it will print the sRGB space, Adobe RGB space, and almost all the Prophoto colour space, so again if minor you decide what it minor, myself I forgetaboutit.

Cheers: Allan

[steverap]

Thanks, Manfred, I see your point. Here's a display comparing Epson P800 Ultra Premium Photo Paper Luster and my iMac display (greyed), and clearly some colors are out of gamut. This illustrates your point, correct?

[steverap]

Interesting. The Epson P800 is supposed to cover completely the Adobe RGB space and my images have ProPhoto RGB color spaces. I converted a few images to Adobe RGB, thinking they would print properly on the Epson P800, but they did not. Why is that?

[Manfred M]

Thanks, Manfred, I see your point. Here's a display comparing Epson P800 Ultra Premium Photo Paper Luster and my iMac display (greyed), and clearly some colors are out of gamut. This illustrates your point, correct?

Yes, that is what I was trying to convey.

[Manfred M]

Interesting. The Epson P800 is supposed to cover completely the Adobe RGB space and my images have ProPhoto RGB color spaces. I converted a few images to Adobe RGB, thinking they would print properly on the Epson P800, but they did not. Why is that?

You are forgetting about the print medium being part of the issue. Matte papers reflect less light and bleed more ink than glossy ones. Print on a highly reflective medium that has optical brighteners (OBA) and your image output will get closer to the theoretical maximum. Print on a matte "natural" unbleached base without the OBAs and you will get farther away from the maximum.

Note - high end archival papers will generally not have OBAs as these break down over time.

[steverap]

Good point, did not consider that. This discussion has been enormously helpful, Manfred, thank you so much!

[Round Tuit]

I never thought of the problem that way! And that probably explains why prints look much closer to what I see on my iMac display when I view them outside, under daylight - correct?

Yes

So, create an adjustment layer at the top of the stack and increase brightness and contrast until displayed image and print match, right?

Yes or use two layers, one for contrast and one for brightness.

Instead of printing multiple trial-and-error prints until I get a match, could I soft proof images until the soft proof and displayed images match?

Possibly but not likely. The soft proof is based on a standard illumination(I believe daylight balanced at 5000K and a fixed level) You are very unlikely to find those viewing conditions anywhere in your house and those conditions influence the apparence of your prints.

Personnally, I only use softproofing to identify out of gamut colors and if they are an important part of my image, correct them before printing.

There is a great deal of excellent advice in this thread. You could soon be on your way to produce consistently prints that are to your liking.

André

[Polar01]

Steve your post #24, if you reread post #22 it states "You have an Epson P800 it will print the sRGB space, Adobe RGB space, and almost all the Prophoto colour space", notice that it states both the sRGB and Adobe RGB colours spaces will print and almost all the Prophoto.
Steve out of gamut colours have nothing to do with your monitor as your iMac is SRGB colour space and only that. Out of gamut is only about what the printer can not print correctly using the paper, print, ink combo that was selected. You can see this on a monitor as LR or Photoshop overlays a colour to show you where and how much the printer can not correctly produce.

Cheers: Allan

[rpcrowe]

I meant to post this in my original statement but, in my old age, forgot.

The reflectance of any print also is dependent on the light source under which it is viewed. As an example, I had this image done in canvas and was a bit disappointed because the canvas was too dark and too muddy.



I brought the image to my photo club to ask opinions. Because the room was quite dark, I placed the image under a portrait display (I think that's what you call a light designed to be mounted over a wall hung picture) light on the wall. The change was immediate and definitive. The light opened the shadows and made the entire image crisp and lively.

I don't know of any program that will replicate the different light sources under which images can be viewed.

The Canon Photo Print Program supplied with my Pixma Pro 9000 Mark-2 printer will actually print a proof sheet of images with different color balances and exposures on the paper you plan to use.

[steverap]

Hi Allan, thanks. Yes, I get out-of-gamut warnings (in grey) in Photoshop's Print module. Even with unedited images, sometimes I get out-of-gamut warnings. So if Photoshop tells me certain colors are out of gamut, is there no way I can print them accurately on my Epson P800 or indeed on any other printer?

[steverap]

Hi Richard. Yes, I have a similar experience wth my prints: when I view them in daylight (outside on a slightly overcast day) they look much better, colors are close to what I see on my iMac display. What do I do, though? In nearly all cases, I can't show prints to people in daylight (and prints do not look as good under daylights bulbs). How do I make prints that look as good as they do on my iMac display yet can be viewed under good indoor lighting (but not daylight)? Frustrating.

[Polar01]

Steve you are worrying too much, so a colour is out of gamut so what, if it makes up a very small part of the image you likely will never see it, unless you are a worry wart. Once you have been in the game for a while you will learn what is important and what is not. If a large amount of area is out, than try to correct for this, how you say, add a HSL layer select the little finger pointer thingy select the colour of gamut, then adjust the Hue, Saturation, and Luminous for that colour to see if you can move more of the out of gamut colour back into gamut. Also remember some colours maybe out of gamut with brand "A", however it you use brand "B" it maybe less, and if you use brand "C" nothing maybe out of gamut.
Suggest if you have an image that shows out of gamut, try printing it, look at the print off the printer can you really see that it is not the correct colour, bet you can't.

Cheers: Allan