Something I haven't been able to figure out

[KimC]

Hi. I'm hoping I can get some help from PS users. This image is not mine - it was on Instagram. This photographer has shown before and after images and her after always yields a super shiny horse. Could someone lend me some help as to how she enhances the horse's coat? Thank you

Ps these images are typically done in a stall or aisle and the black background is painted in during PP.

[rpcrowe]

I can't be sure about horses but, dogs coats often look shiny when I boost the structure slider in NIK Viveza...

[purplehaze]

Hi Kim, I'm not a PS user, but maybe this will help? https://youtu.be/hZjXGcvkXXAo

[KimC]

Thanks Richard. I recently downloaded the NIK software before it disappears, so I will try that.

I can't be sure about horses but, dogs coats often look shiny when I boost the structure slider in NIK Viveza...

[KimC]

Gee, thanks Janis. I looked all over youtube and wasn't finding anything helpful. Thanks for pointing me to this! It will def help. I don't work in PS either - I use Affinity for this type of work, and usually if I see how it's done in PS, I can figure out how to do it in Affinity. I was going to try to learn PS -- but PS and LR ate up all the space on my computer...so it had to go when there are other tools that can serve my needs currently.

I was thinking about this last night when I went to bed, and I'm wondering if playing with dodging and burning by targeting either highlights, midtones, or shadows might accomplish something similar. Have lots to try to see what works :-)

Hi Kim, I'm not a PS user, but maybe this will help? https://youtu.be/hZjXGcvkXXAo

[Manfred M]

Kim - this definitely looks like dodging and burning work (burning for the highlights) to me. There are numerous ways of doing this and I didn't play around with the Serif Infinity software long enough to see how they implemented their version. In Photoshop do not use the built in dodging and burning tools. Rather I do this with an adjustment layer using curves and set the blending mode to "Overlay". The biggest issue with burning is that while we are trying to increase luminosity, saturation also increases and that has to be neutralized and here I clip a saturation layer to my burning layer.

Just as an aside, one of my favourite photographic quotes about dodging and burning comes from Ansel Adams; "Dodging and burning are steps to take care of mistakes God made in establishing tonal relationships."

[NorthernFocus]

Have you tried simply raising the white point and highlights and dropping the black point and shadows? Basically the opposite of what we typically do with dark furry things. Though as Manfred indicated this particular image does look like some brushing/masking(aka dodging/burning) was done on it.

[KimC]

Hmmm, so my brain before bed was on the right track. Manfred, can you explain why you don't use the dodging and burning tools built into PS. As I said, I don't use PS, but I'd like to understand - I'm thinking you might have more control using curves? I like your quote -- I have come to love those tools but use them very cautiously :-)

Kim - this definitely looks like dodging and burning work (burning for the highlights) to me. There are numerous ways of doing this and I didn't play around with the Serif Infinity software long enough to see how they implemented their version. In Photoshop do not use the built in dodging and burning tools. Rather I do this with an adjustment layer using curves and set the blending mode to "Overlay". The biggest issue with burning is that while we are trying to increase luminosity, saturation also increases and that has to be neutralized and here I clip a saturation layer to my burning layer.

Just as an aside, one of my favourite photographic quotes about dodging and burning comes from Ansel Adams; "Dodging and burning are steps to take care of mistakes God made in establishing tonal relationships."

[Manfred M]

Hmmm, so my brain before bed was on the right track. Manfred, can you explain why you don't use the dodging and burning tools built into PS. As I said, I don't use PS, but I'd like to understand - I'm thinking you might have more control using curves? I like your quote -- I have come to love those tools but use them very cautiously :-)

A tiny bit of colour theory before I get too deeply into this, Kim.





With the RGB colour model we generally use, a every colour has two aspects; luminance (the vertical axis in the diagram) and saturation (the horizontal axis). Whenever we make an adjustment to one, we also change the other, and that is the underlying problem in trying to do dodging and burning.

When we dodge or burn, we want to change the luminance (brightness) of the area we are working on, but not the saturation. As the two are intrinsically linked, we can't do that. The problem with the tools in Photoshop is that they add black when one is dodging and white when one is burning, without regard to the saturation of the area we are working on, so unless there is very little work done, the areas we burn tend to look gray and the areas we dodge do too; which is obviously not what we want.

The other problem with Photoshop is the implementation of the tool; it is destructive, so once a pixel is changed, it can't be turned back unless we use the undo functionality. The problem with dodging and burning is that the processes are iterative. We do the operation and build up the effect. If we have gone too far, undoing is a pain, so a better (non-destructive) method is required.

My current method of choice right now is to use a curve adjustment layer. The dodge and burn adjustment layers have a black layer mask associated with the adjustment, so painting on it with a soft white brush, with low flow (I am usually using ~ 2% flow), I can paint and build up the effect. If I have gone too far, I just switch to a black brush to reduce the effect. The reason I use flow, rather than opacity (which is set to 100%) on the brush is the way these settings work. The opacity setting is not-additive, so every time I pass over the area, the amount that is brushed on remains the same, so the effect does not build up (unless I lift my stylus off the tablet (I use a Wacom tablet for this type of work) or release the mouse button. With flow, every time I pass over the area, it will deposit the colour additively, so this builds up the effect more easily.

As I mentioned, the nature of RGB means that the saturation changes as well too, so the clipping mask above the curves adjustment layer lets me selectively change the saturation, by painting with a black brush on the white layer mask.

The following shot shows the adjustment layers for dodging and burning as well as the associated clipping masks. The curve for the dodge layer is more or less the mirror of the one shown for the burn layer.

[KimC]

Hi Dan! Yes, I have tried that. Although it helped, it didn't get me to where I thought I could be.

Have you tried simply raising the white point and highlights and dropping the black point and shadows? Basically the opposite of what we typically do with dark furry things. Though as Manfred indicated this particular image does look like some brushing/masking(aka dodging/burning) was done on it.

[KimC]

Thanks a bunch for the detailed response to my question Manfred. You have given me a lot to think about (and figure out)... I may come back with some questions once I experiment.

I'm also going to experiment with Affinity's dodging and burning more to see if I encounter the same downsides (I'm thinking I will) - to date I have only applied those tools delicately.

A tiny bit of colour theory before I get too deeply into this, Kim.





With the RGB colour model we generally use, a every colour has two aspects; luminance (the vertical axis in the diagram) and saturation (the horizontal axis). Whenever we make an adjustment to one, we also change the other, and that is the underlying problem in trying to do dodging and burning.

When we dodge or burn, we want to change the luminance (brightness) of the area we are working on, but not the saturation. As the two are intrinsically linked, we can't do that. The problem with the tools in Photoshop is that they add black when one is dodging and white when one is burning, without regard to the saturation of the area we are working on, so unless there is very little work done, the areas we burn tend to look gray and the areas we dodge do too; which is obviously not what we want.

The other problem with Photoshop is the implementation of the tool; it is destructive, so once a pixel is changed, it can't be turned back unless we use the undo functionality. The problem with dodging and burning is that the processes are iterative. We do the operation and build up the effect. If we have gone too far, undoing is a pain, so a better (non-destructive) method is required.

My current method of choice right now is to use a curve adjustment layer. The dodge and burn adjustment layers have a black layer mask associated with the adjustment, so painting on it with a soft white brush, with low flow (I am usually using ~ 2% flow), I can paint and build up the effect. If I have gone too far, I just switch to a black brush to reduce the effect. The reason I use flow, rather than opacity (which is set to 100%) on the brush is the way these settings work. The opacity setting is not-additive, so every time I pass over the area, the amount that is brushed on remains the same, so the effect does not build up (unless I lift my stylus off the tablet (I use a Wacom tablet for this type of work) or release the mouse button. With flow, every time I pass over the area, it will deposit the colour additively, so this builds up the effect more easily.

As I mentioned, the nature of RGB means that the saturation changes as well too, so the clipping mask above the curves adjustment layer lets me selectively change the saturation, by painting with a black brush on the white layer mask.

The following shot shows the adjustment layers for dodging and burning as well as the associated clipping masks. The curve for the dodge layer is more or less the mirror of the one shown for the burn layer.

[rpcrowe]

Although this little black puppy does have a shiny coat, the addition of the NIK Viveza structure slider increases the apparent shine...

[KimC]

Thank you Richard. I am going to explore all the options provided here as playing with the various options equals learning.

Although this little black puppy does have a shiny coat, the addition of the NIK Viveza structure slider increases the apparent shine...

[DanK]

Manfred,

Thanks very much for taking the time to post this much detail. The screen shot is a big help. I think I will end up using this technique in the future.

Dan

A tiny bit of colour theory before I get too deeply into this, Kim.





With the RGB colour model we generally use, a every colour has two aspects; luminance (the vertical axis in the diagram) and saturation (the horizontal axis). Whenever we make an adjustment to one, we also change the other, and that is the underlying problem in trying to do dodging and burning.

When we dodge or burn, we want to change the luminance (brightness) of the area we are working on, but not the saturation. As the two are intrinsically linked, we can't do that. The problem with the tools in Photoshop is that they add black when one is dodging and white when one is burning, without regard to the saturation of the area we are working on, so unless there is very little work done, the areas we burn tend to look gray and the areas we dodge do too; which is obviously not what we want.

The other problem with Photoshop is the implementation of the tool; it is destructive, so once a pixel is changed, it can't be turned back unless we use the undo functionality. The problem with dodging and burning is that the processes are iterative. We do the operation and build up the effect. If we have gone too far, undoing is a pain, so a better (non-destructive) method is required.

My current method of choice right now is to use a curve adjustment layer. The dodge and burn adjustment layers have a black layer mask associated with the adjustment, so painting on it with a soft white brush, with low flow (I am usually using ~ 2% flow), I can paint and build up the effect. If I have gone too far, I just switch to a black brush to reduce the effect. The reason I use flow, rather than opacity (which is set to 100%) on the brush is the way these settings work. The opacity setting is not-additive, so every time I pass over the area, the amount that is brushed on remains the same, so the effect does not build up (unless I lift my stylus off the tablet (I use a Wacom tablet for this type of work) or release the mouse button. With flow, every time I pass over the area, it will deposit the colour additively, so this builds up the effect more easily.

As I mentioned, the nature of RGB means that the saturation changes as well too, so the clipping mask above the curves adjustment layer lets me selectively change the saturation, by painting with a black brush on the white layer mask.

The following shot shows the adjustment layers for dodging and burning as well as the associated clipping masks. The curve for the dodge layer is more or less the mirror of the one shown for the burn layer.

[Manfred M]

Just to be complete, I thought I would show what the dodge curve looks like:

In both cases, these are good starting points, but I will sometimes place with the midpoint on the curves (both dodge and burn) to see how things look. Moving the centre point further away intensifies the effect and bringing it closer makes it more subtle.

[Mike Buckley]

When I can't see a change in saturation when I change the luminosity, I couldn't care less what the color theory is. This strikes me very much as similar to the proven fact that when a JPEG is saved over and over, the quality of the image file degrades. However, if my eyes can't perceive the degradation, I also couldn't care less.

[DanK]

Manfred,

If the point is to undo the incidental changes in saturation--as opposed to fine-tuning it to taste--why not simply use the luminance blending mode for the dodging and burning adjustment layers rather than clipping saturation adjustment layers? That's what I do with contrast adjustments using a curve, and it seems to work well.

Dan


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Manfred M]

Manfred,

If the point is to undo the incidental changes in saturation--as opposed to fine-tuning it to taste--why not simply use the luminance blending mode for the dodging and burning adjustment layers rather than clipping saturation adjustment layers? That's what I do with contrast adjustments using a curve, and it seems to work well.

Dan


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Thanks Dan - I'll have to try that. The nice thing about Photoshop is that there are so many different ways to tackle the same problem.

Another approach that I am using more often is rather using an aggressive curve in Burning, duplicating the layer and stacking it up reduces / eliminates the increased saturation issue.

There is less of an issue with the Dodging as minor localized desaturation is less noticeable than the increased saturation that comes from burning.

[Manfred M]

When I can't see a change in saturation when I change the luminosity, I couldn't care less what the color theory is.

Mike - some of us are interested as to how and why things work so that we can try to find a solution. I guess that is just how my brain is wired.

This strikes me very much as similar to the proven fact that when a JPEG is saved over and over, the quality of the image file degrades.

This is often said but also 100% incorrect. Try resaving the same jpeg 50 or 100 times; there is no change in either image quality or image size, i.e. there is no further loss of data (so long as the quality level of the jpeg is not changed). Yes, I have done this to prove this to myself just to confirm that this is correct.

The lossy compression occurs the first time the image is saved, so converting from the 14-bit in the RAW data to the 8-bit used in the JPEG. Another way that the lossy compression occurs is that some of the colour data is thrown away, but the luminoisity is protected.

All of these things can only be done once, so there cannot be any incremental data loss on subsequent saving the image.

However, if my eyes can't perceive the degradation, I also couldn't care less.

Agreed. That is ultimately how I judge things too.

[purplehaze]

why not simply use the luminance blending mode for the dodging and burning adjustment layers

Dan


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

FWIW, that is one of the techniques the tutorial demonstrates, only with a brightness/contrast adjustment layer.