PS Help - File Size (Roundtripping with LRP)

[TheBigE]

I have a 7 shot pano that I exported to PS for stitching. I typically work in LR and then round trip to PS as needed. In this case I stiched the photos and then wanted to return to LR - I did my usual and elected to Save the Photo (Tyhpically as a TIFF). I encountered an error that says the file size was over 4gb and could not be saved as TIFF. I am only able to save this as .psd. However, it does not show in my LR catalog.

I guess I could manually upload the photo as a psd into my LR catalog (I assume it supports this format .psd).

I have several large Panos I have taken on this trip so far - I would like to know how best to handle this rountripping with LR and PS. I think PS offers more in the stitching and editing, but I like to use LR for DAM.

Any is appreciated..

[Manfred M]

You have a very strange workflow, Eric.

Normally one would work in the parametric editor / raw converter unit all those steps are done and then move over to the pixel based editor to finish up. It's a one-way street with no good way of returning. The reason LR does not show .psd files is that it cannot open them. You have found a partial workaround, but obviously there are limits to what you can do when you use a workaround.

Photoshop has a "Camera Raw Filter", that gives you the same functionality as LR, except that the user interface is a bit different. That would be one workaround. The other would be to resize your file so that it gets below the 4GB limit for TIFF; do you really need all that data?

A bit of a warning though; Photoshop .psd files are limited to 2GB maximum, after which you have to same them as large document format .psb files. I believe the maximum file size is an operating system / file structure limit, rather than something that is inherent to Lightroom.

[jisner]

The reason LR does not show .psd files is that it cannot open them.

LR can "open" psd and psb files, but of course does not see layers. It only sees the flattened image that Photoshop adds to the layered file if you have specified "Maximize PSD and PSB File Compatibility" in Photoshop File Handling preferences.

[Cantab]

Erik, when I do the LR/PS/LR round trip with an indivdual photo, I always save it in PS as a .psd file and it then always resurfaces as a psd image in LR. So I think you're correct in assuming that LR supports psd images.

I don't often save TIFF files but my recollection is that they are always noticeably larger than a corresponding .psd file. If you've managed to save the completed pano file in psd, it's presumably under the size limit mentioned by Manfred. So the solution may be simply to import the stitched pano psd file into your LR database.

edit: John typed his post while I was doing mine!

[Manfred M]

LR can "open" psd and psb files, but of course does not see layers. It only sees the flattened image that Photoshop adds to the layered file if you have specified "Maximize PSD and PSB File Compatibility" in Photoshop File Handling preferences.

Thanks - I don't use LR all that often and could not find any psb files when I opened my catalog. When I just went back and looked, I had set the filter to only show RAW files. No wonder I couldn't seen them...

Thanks for the correction.

[george013]

I have a 7 shot pano that I exported to PS for stitching. I typically work in LR and then round trip to PS as needed. In this case I stiched the photos and then wanted to return to LR - I did my usual and elected to Save the Photo (Tyhpically as a TIFF). I encountered an error that says the file size was over 4gb and could not be saved as TIFF. I am only able to save this as .psd. However, it does not show in my LR catalog.

I guess I could manually upload the photo as a psd into my LR catalog (I assume it supports this format .psd).

I have several large Panos I have taken on this trip so far - I would like to know how best to handle this rountripping with LR and PS. I think PS offers more in the stitching and editing, but I like to use LR for DAM.

Any is appreciated..

I wonder why to return to LR? You mention DAM. I had to find out what that meant, Digital Asset Management. What I learned the catalogue tools. Not an editing tool. Look in the tiff settings. You probably didn't save your image as a normal tiff, but one with layers.
A simple calculation.
Assume you stitched your picture without overlap and the resulting picture would be exactly 4GB or 4000MB, than every picture would have been 571.43MB, 4000/7. Let's assume you did work with 16 bit. Every color uses 16 bit or 2 byte. With 3 colors that are 6 bytes. That would mean that your image was 95MB, 571.43/6,or 7968x11952 pixels. I know the figures are not correct but since that rgb raster image is so big compared to the additional info they can be used for a roughly calculations. Are those figures coming close to your camera specs? I don't know your camera, but the D800 has 7360x4192 pixels, nearly 1/3 of this.

If you want to use LR for cataloging you must export the tiff in PS as a fixed image. It won't get 4000MB.

I've a pano made with more than 30 pictures, D700 or 4256x2832 pixels. I had an overlap of about 1/3 I think, total tiff size is 325MB, I think 8 bit, not sure.

I don't have LR or PS and I hope I didn't make a calculation fault.



George

[pnodrog]

George it is likely the file size is derived from 7 times the overall size not 7 times the contributing images.

Erik Once the stitched photograph has been merged and adjusted I may save/archive a layered version in case I ever want to revise the stitching edit in Photoshop but then I flatten the image before doing any further work either in Photoshop or Lightroom. On the few occasions I have done stitching, a poster or something that used multiple images I have always manually imported the final or nearly final image into Lightroom. I use the option of ADD when importing so they remain in their existing folder.

Like you for these images LR is basically a DAM tool.

[george013]

George it is likely the file size is derived from 7 times the overall size not 7 times the contributing images.

Erik Once the stitched photograph has been merged and adjusted I may save/archive a layered version in case I ever want to revise the stitching edit in Photoshop but then I flatten the image before doing any further work either in Photoshop or Lightroom. On the few occasions I have done stitching, a poster or something that used multiple images I have always manually imported the final or nearly final image into Lightroom. I use the option of ADD when importing so they remain in their existing folder.

Like you for these images LR is basically a DAM tool.

My basic assumption is that a pano can be maximal the total of the individual images. So if that image Erik saved is just a tiff, then the original images would be......
It reminds me of that other thread not so long ago. The Save button was original meant as writing back on the original location in the original size. With the Save As you could change those settings. Compare with your text editors. Parametric editors don't overwrite the original/input file. When one wants a tiff as a single rgb raster image you must export it as a tiff, with the appropriate settings. From what I've read that's how PS works. And Gimp. And any other parametric editor, including Cad programs.

Assume Eriks camera has a 4000x600pixels sensor and his pano has an overlap of 25% than the resulting 8 bit rgb raster image would 4000x6000x3x7x0.75=378MB. Plus some additional info. When saved as 16 bit the double.
Should be no problem for LR.

George

[jisner]

Should be no problem for LR.

Lightroom doesn't care how large the file is, whether it has layers, or whether it's a tiff, PSD, or PSB. The file size limitation applies only to Photoshop. The document sizes (shown at the bottom of the Photoshop window, if you choose to display it) have no direct relationship to the size on disk because Photoshop cannot know what the file size will be until it tries to save. For example, the data in the file will be compressed and the amount of compression cannot be known until the compression occurs.

I have found that the best way to decrease file size when you're up against the size limit is to clean up and re-save. You'll be surprised that deleting a couple of unused raster layers or channels can dramatically decrease file size. If you're doing the pano in PS and not flattening, then you have 16-bit layer masks as well as the raster layers, the background layer, and the added flattened layer(s) that PS creates to maximize compatibility (AFAIK Photoshop creates flattened versions of each layer for compatibility!).

As to why anyone would make a round trip (LR -> PS -> LR), the two main reasons are DAM and printing.

[Manfred M]

Lightroom doesn't care how large the file is, whether it has layers, or whether it's a tiff, PSD, or PSB. The file size limitation applies only to Photoshop.

Agreed. Lightroom does nothing more than place a pointer to the location on the disk. The only direct edits Lightroom makes are either stored in the catalog and / or written to the .xmp file.

The document sizes (shown at the bottom of the Photoshop window, if you choose to display it) have no direct relationship to the size on disk because Photoshop cannot know what the file size will be until it tries to save. For example, the data in the file will be compressed and the amount of compression cannot be known until the compression occurs.

Also agreed. Photoshop does not abort the save of .psd files and .tif files until the file size is exceeded during the save process. Both Lightroom and ACR output as .DNG, which can be used by Photoshop.

I have found that the best way to decrease file size when you're up against the size limit is to clean up and re-save. You'll be surprised that deleting a couple of unused raster layers or channels can dramatically decrease file size. If you're doing the pano in PS and not flattening, then you have 16-bit layer masks as well as the raster layers, the background layer, and the added flattened layer(s) that PS creates to maximize compatibility (AFAIK Photoshop creates flattened versions of each layer for compatibility!).

That only works if the file is small enough. I have put together a pano from 12 shots and

Agreed that there are some possible savings related to flattening the data and deleting layers, but this is only useful if the file size can be reduced to below the maximum size these image can be save at. I spent some time working with a 12 image pano that I imported into Photoshop. The output from LR / ACR is a 623 GB dng file and if I save it from Photoshop, it turns into a 2 GB .psd file. Add just a few basic adjustment layers - sharpening, some contrast and a few global tweaks, the size grows so much that I'm into a 4 GB .psb or a 4 GB .tif, before starting any local adjustments.

The only solution I see is to throw away all of the working layers and flatten the image to save it so that the appropriate file formats can be used.

As to why anyone would make a round trip (LR -> PS -> LR), the two main reasons are DAM and printing.

1. Unless one is making a office wall sized print - 10ft high by 33 ft wide / 3m x 10m; the 28,000 pixel x 7,000 pixel image is much too large to print, so some downsizing and resharpening would be necessary. I'm not sure what my Epson 3880 would do if I tried to feed it that much data.

2. DAM - sure, but again, with an image this size I'm not sure that I would bother with DAM.

[george013]

Maybe somebody can explain to me what the DAM is? As far as I could figure out it's the cataloguing part of Lightroom. I would think only finished images are used for that. So what's against to export the image as a simple tiff? I think that's what's meant with flattening? If you want to keep the edit list for later, it's in the PS directory as a .psd or whatever.

What I've read about the maximum size in PS of the image, there're two factors: the longest side in pixels and the total amount in memory. The longest side in pixels in 64k. That would mean the raster is addressed as a 2 dimensional array where the indexes are limited by the maximum of a word: 2^16=64k. I wouldn't be surprised if that limitation counts for any image, in memory or on disk.

George

[billtils]

Maybe somebody can explain to me what the DAM is?
George

George, I'm sure that your query is about more than just what "DAM" means, but just in case ... It's an acronym for Digital Asset Manager, which basically means the part of digital photography software that performs a cataloguing function. Not all digital photography programs incorporate a DAM - some are only editors - and there are some stand-alone DAMs.

Lightroom is one example that is both a DAM and editor; I don't use it so cannot give a specific answer to your extended question, but Capture One, which I use, allows you to place images in a structured catalogue and also to tag them with keywords. Capture One will allow you to access the original raw (or RAW ) files and the edited variants. I'd be surprised if LR did not do the same.

HTH

[george013]

George, I'm sure that your query is about more than just what "DAM" means, but just in case ... It's an acronym for Digital Asset Manager, which basically means the part of digital photography software that performs a cataloguing function. Not all digital photography programs incorporate a DAM - some are only editors - and there are some stand-alone DAMs.

Lightroom is one example that is both a DAM and editor; I don't use it so cannot give a specific answer to your extended question, but Capture One, which I use, allows you to place images in a structured catalogue and also to tag them with keywords. Capture One will allow you to access the original raw (or RAW ) files and the edited variants. I'd be surprised if LR did not do the same.

HTH

That's what I thought. I personal would use finished image files for that purpose. That means not using the Save button but the Export button in PS. I'm not sure Erik is aware of that.

George

[DanK]

That's what I thought. I personal would use finished image files for that purpose. That means not using the Save button but the Export button in PS. I'm not sure Erik is aware of that.

George

George

I don't think you understand Lightroom. When one exports, the resulting file is not included necessarily included in the catalog at all. Lightroom catalogs whatever file it is pointed to, but not files that it sends out of the system. To give you two examples:

1. Many of my images are edited only in Lightroom. I export the finished image if I want to post it on the web or send it to someone. I don't export or create any other file type, such as jpeg or TIFF, if I am simply going to print the image. If I export a JPEG using the standard methods I use, Lightroom doesn't keep track of the finished jpeg. What LR has cataloged is the raw file and the xml file of edits.

2. When I move an image from LR to PS, if I save it (rather than "save as"), LR will catalog the resulting file, which is usually a TIFF.

I am away from my editing computer, but I don't think there is an export button in PS. One exports using Save As or Save for Web.

Dan

[Mike Buckley]

I am away from my editing computer, but I don't think there is an export button in PS. One exports using Save As or Save for Web.

There is no export function in Photoshop for the same reason there is no export function in a text editor; there is also no import function. Instead of an import function, there is an open function.

[Manfred M]

There is no export function in Photoshop for the same reason there is no export function in a text editor; there is also no import function. Instead of an import function, there is an open function.

Umm. Yes there is an Export as well as an Import function...

[Mike Buckley]

Umm. Yes there is an Export as well as an Import function...

Thanks for that correction, Manfred. On the other hand, the use of "umm" is both condescending and sarcastic and, as such, is unwarranted. If you want to feel superior because you know something that I don't know, I am happy to provide you with a very long list of those items. I mention this because it's far from the first time you have corrected my posts (and others') in this manner and I don't like it in the least. I would very much appreciate it if you would please simply correct my posts without including any other implications. Thank you in advance.

[Manfred M]

On the other hand, the use of "umm" is both condescending and sarcastic

Actually it is neither Mike and certainly not the way I intended it. I do use it when I don't want to come out and say "you were wrong".

One dictionary definition I found suggests the following; "Used to express doubt or uncertainty or to fill a pause when hesitating in speaking". It is very commonly used in speech where I live.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/umm

[george013]

George

I don't think you understand Lightroom. When one exports, the resulting file is not included necessarily included in the catalog at all. Lightroom catalogs whatever file it is pointed to, but not files that it sends out of the system. To give you two examples:

1. Many of my images are edited only in Lightroom. I export the finished image if I want to post it on the web or send it to someone. I don't export or create any other file type, such as jpeg or TIFF, if I am simply going to print the image. If I export a JPEG using the standard methods I use, Lightroom doesn't keep track of the finished jpeg. What LR has cataloged is the raw file and the xml file of edits.

2. When I move an image from LR to PS, if I save it (rather than "save as"), LR will catalog the resulting file, which is usually a TIFF.

I am away from my editing computer, but I don't think there is an export button in PS. One exports using Save As or Save for Web.

Dan

Erik is working in PS and wants to use the DAM of LR. He has problems going from PS to LR. I'm pretty sure he wants the picture itself as the end result of the editing to include in the LR catalogue. Now he's saving it all including the layers which are of no use anymore. In this specific example the file size is to big, thanks to all the extra's.
Just let's wait if he wants to react.

About 2. If you go from PS to LR you use a diskfile. You save it in whatever way, open it in LR or import it in the catalogue. It's not an automated process, as far as I understand.

George

[DanK]

You save it in whatever way, open it in LR or import it in the catalogue. It's not an automated process, as far as I understand.

As I mentioned, if you use "save" with an image you have opened in PS via the "edit in" menu in LR, the process is automatic. The saved image is automatically imported and cataloged by LR. It will generally appear next to the original image in the filmstrip. I don't have PS with me, but I believe that if the original file in LR is a TIFF, the process will add "edit" to the file name. For example, I often stack photos in zerene. There is a LR plugin that automatically exports the images to TIFF and opens them in Zerene, but the final TIFF from Zerene is NOT automatically added to the LR catalog. One has to import it. If I then edit in PS and save, the edited image automatically appears in LR, with "edit" added to the file name.

open it in LR or import

As far as I know, one can't open an image in LR without importing it.