Green :-(

[KimC]

Hi everyone. I need some guidance. As some of you know, I photograph a lot of police dogs in training. Conditions are never ideal, which has helped me to learn a lot. Often times we are on green grass (which I have really come to dislike). I do know if it's sunny out, and you are shooting under a tree, the leaves with throw a green cast on everything. Same if the dog is close to the grass. What I am trying to figure out, when not under a tree, sometimes I get that color cast on a person, and sometimes I don't. I would think, it would be worse if the sun was out, but that's not always the case. I shoot on auto WB. Any thoughts as to why sometimes I get the cast and sometimes I don't in the same conditions? Would it be worse if I was a bit underexposed? In addition my D810 is worse with the green cast than my D750. Thank you

[Shadowman]

Hi Kim,

I think the first thing to consider is how are your cameras setup, are the cameras setup to capture the maximum amount of detail? Are you shooting RAW, 12 or 14 bit, colorspace the same on both cameras, and what WB are you setting in-camera and during PP? Regarding under/overexposure, if you are shooting at base ISO (100 or 200) and can capture a decent dynamic range with good stopping of action you should be able to correct any color cast created during the capture. The image shown was taken hastily this weekend, I was late to the event so just set the camera to aperture priority and tried to get a sharp image. I didn't see a noticeable color cast from the grass but usually select lens correction/profile during image processing. If anything I feel I need to correct for skintones, I don't feel there was an issue with color cast from the grass.

[KimC]

Thanks John. Here are the answers to the D810 (output prompted this question):

- shoot RAW - camera is set for 14 bit
- use SRGB
- WB is Auto1, but as a result of your response, I noted my WB was auto1(-1) - all of the pics were shot on this WB so I know that wasn't the source of the issue. Have since fixed that.
- ISO was between 500-640
- Use Capture One 10.2 for processing RAW files

[Shadowman]

Thanks John. Here are the answers to the D810 (output prompted this question):

- shoot RAW - camera is set for 14 bit
- use SRGB
- WB is Auto1, but as a result of your response, I noted my WB was auto1(-1) - all of the pics were shot on this WB so I know that wasn't the source of the issue. Have since fixed that.
- ISO was between 500-640
- Use Capture One 10.2 for processing RAW files

Hi Kim,

Not familiar with Capture One software but have to assume it has some sort of color correction filter, I'd start with that correction and selecting a white balance that gives you an overall temperature you're satisfied with. With the software I use, typically LR or Elements I have a couple of options I can use for color correction, mainly the levels adjustment and color curve tool. I can also try to isolate a particular color and adjust the luminance or brightness.

[Manfred M]

Kim - are you shooting a reference gray card as part of your workflow? As most of your work is fairly formal, it should possible to do so and pulling an acceptable WB off if is super easy. In Capture One, just use the "Pick White Balance" tool to get the white balance right off the reference shot. The only trick is to ensure that the light hitting the gray card is representative of the light hitting your subject(s). Every time you move to a different lighting area, shoot another reference shot.

If you are shooting raw, then the colour space (sRGB) and white balance setting (Auto1) are completely irrelevant. They do not affect the raw data at all. It may set the initial settings used by your editing program, but you can certainly change them during the raw import process.

The major issue that you are facing is that you are shooting in a mixed light situation; as both the colour temperature of the light source (sunlight) AND the light reflected from the grass and the trees is going to impact the final result. Getting 100% white balance in a mixed lighting situation is just about impossible. Place your subject right beside a red wall or a blue wall, and you will see a similar impact. This is why you are seeing in your shots; inconsistent results because of getting a consistent auto white balance is not possible.

The solution is to get the skin tones to look right, as everything else really doesn't matter. People will notice when the skin tones don't look right, but the other things in the image don't matter as much. The gray card (I use three; a small WhitBal card, the card / swatch that are part of my X-Rite ColorChecker and my Lastolite folding gray target). This might get you close enough, but if you are not right on, try adding a bit of magenta (i.e. subtract green) during the raw conversion.

[JBW]

Thanks John. Here are the answers to the D810 (output prompted this question):

- shoot RAW - camera is set for 14 bit
- use SRGB
- WB is Auto1, but as a result of your response, I noted my WB was auto1(-1) - all of the pics were shot on this WB so I know that wasn't the source of the issue. Have since fixed that.
- ISO was between 500-640
- Use Capture One 10.2 for processing RAW files

Hi Kim, I use Capture 1 9. I would experiment with the skin tone tool. It works on any color grouping in your shot. Grass can be adjusted, skin can anything you can click on can be adjusted. I am bettin g that C1 10 has the same B&W button. In it you can adjust for hints of color. Worth a try.
Brian

[Shadowman]

Kim,

Another thing to take into consideration is the position of the sun, in the image I posted this was taken around 1:30PM so the sun was directly overhead. As you stated you are concern when the pup and handler are positioned directly under the sun with no branches overhead, if the sun is directly overhead you should have less of an issue although you'll still get a cast shadow in particular areas, if the sun is setting lower then you'll want to avoid backlighting but directly lit faces and fur can create a challenge.

[DanK]

I think Manfred nailed it. All I will add is that there is a work-around if you find you don't have an appropriate white balance reading for some photos--for example, if some have a different color cast than those in which you have the white balance target. One work-around is to start by getting the facial tones right for the images for which you do have the white balance target. Then edit each of the problematic ones while comparing to one of the fixed ones, and adjust the yellow-blue and magenta-green sliders for that one until the facial tones look similar. Just as the facial tones are what people will most notice, differences in the color balance of those tones will be much more apparent than differences in other parts of the image. I see this in my candids of kids all the time. The lighting is too mixed to have a neutral reference for every one. If I edit each separately and then compare, I often find a noticeable variation on the blue-yellow axis that I then have to correct.

[NorthernFocus]

If memory serves I seem to recall an ancient Shaolin saying, "when grass hopper live in grass, whole world look green". IOW, to understand WB you have to learn to see the world the way your camera sees it. If there is a green cast on things it may not be caused by the grass/trees at all. It may be caused by the camera compensating for other dominant colors in the scene. But at the end of the day it's really not necessary to figure it out. As Manfred pointed out, you can't get "correct" WB across the entire scene. Pick the main thing that you want to look right and adjust for that. Then if there are other things that need to be corrected you may have to use some brushing/masking to do so.

[KimC]

Thanks for all the comments and insight.

John, yes, my software does have ways to correct, but it was frustrating me as to why some where ok, and others were not when the setting was identical (but not the handler or K-9). I never backlight at this location... it just doesn't work - it's a rather difficult location to shot at, and not one of my favorites, although I learn a lot.

Manfred, no I am not shooting a gray card. When I go to these, it's like shooting an event - I tend not to speak to any of the handlers in class, but it may make sense to have one of the instructors hold the card for me. Yes, I do shoot RAW so can make lots of changes, I just find it difficult when I have to do this solely by my eye - especially when I am shooting people of many races, with vary different skin tones. Anytime I have people in a scene, I do set my WB to make makes his/her skin look nice. Then if I want to change other things in the scene, I'll do masking. Yes, I agree, the varying light is difficult. Yesterday I watched a video by Capture One and used the Color Balance Wheel to pull the greens out (I didn't add magenta, but actually adjusted the greens) and that was the most significant help. Thanks for your insight.

Brian, I have tried the skin adjustment tool in Capture One and have not had a result I have liked to date -- I need to play and experiment with that more. I have never used that tool for other colors in the scene. Since it's a lot more subtile than the advanced color editor, that might be a great option. Thanks for mentioning that and getting me thinking outside the box!

DanK - yes, that's exactly what I try first to see if I like the result. Otherwise I start from scratch. I have used the sliders to adjust color balance (in Affinity), but I prefer to do it with the Color Balance tools in Capture One if I have a bad cast as it allows you a variety of ways to adjust a certain color.

Alaska Dan - I do believe you may have answered why some were ok and others were not -- my most problematic person was a woman, with a navy top and pants handling a black (with a lot of blue in the coat) Shepherd, made worse when the sun wasn't out. I saw a cell phone pic of her last night in the same location and the green cast was horrible. So, I'll continue on doing what I am doing and add a reference card to my bag.

Thanks everyone :-)

[NorthernFocus]

...I'll continue on doing what I am doing and add a reference card to my bag.

Using the reference card a few times at least isn't a bad exercise to go through in the overall journey towards photographic enlightenment

The whole topic of WB "correction' is a pet peeve of mine. For example you mention the dog having black fur "with a lot of blue in it". In-fact we know that dog's fur isn't blue. It's black. The blue that we see is bluish light that is reflected off of the shiny oils on the animal's fur. Some people would argue that you should correct white balance to remove the blue cast from the fur. And in lieu of any other neutral point in a scene that can actually be a good way to find true WB(try it). But in fact the blue/black is what our eyes perceive. So why would we want to "correct" it? However, the blue/black fur can be a clue for you. The fur is reflecting blue light. So, in truth though you may be thinking that your green cast is due to reflecting green light, it may in fact be due to the scene being lit with cooler light than you think and the camera WB is correcting for it (i.e.shifting toward yellow).

Another exercise you may want to go through for informational purposes it so compare how the RAW files are rendered by Nikon's (free)software versus your RAW converter of choice. You may find that your RAW converter is rendering the images with a color/temperature bias. Not suggesting you switch software. Just to gain understanding that there is no true "standard" conversion.

[Manfred M]

Color Balance Wheel to pull the greens out (I didn't add magenta, but actually adjusted the greens) and that was the most significant help.

Kim when it comes to white balance wheel in Capture One, you will note the following colours are opposite each other on the colour wheel(s).

Red - Cyan;
Green - Magenta; and
Blue - Yellow.

When you reduced one of the primary colours, you are in fact adding the complementary color, so if you are reducing the green you are actually also adding magenta. If you overdo the green reduction, then your image will start to take on a magenta cast. This is basic colour theory and needs to be understood when making colour corrections.

[KimC]

Oh yes, I do understand that. I find it easier in Capture One than Affinity to not go too far. I made one very magenta image in Affinity Eyes can def play games on you!

Kim when it comes to white balance wheel in Capture One, you will note the following colours are opposite each other on the colour wheel(s).

Red - Cyan;
Green - Magenta; and
Blue - Yellow.

When you reduced one of the primary colours, you are in fact adding the complementary color, so if you are reducing the green you are actually also adding magenta. If you overdo the green reduction, then your image will start to take on a magenta cast. This is basic colour theory and needs to be understood when making colour corrections.

[KimC]

Thanks Dan for the additional thoughts. It sure is a journey - always feel behind the 8 ball.

I didn't realize that's what caused the dogs hair to have a blue tint. There are a number of black shepherds in this class, and Ive come to learn over time that not all black is the same. So, I personally like to not overcorrect it - would prefer it to look as much like the dog's coat as is.

Yesterday when I was reading and trying to figure this out, I did read that Nikon WB tends to be on the cool side. I did use the RAW convertor on Affinity yesterday when I was trying to get a handle on this and didn't find much of a difference. I have three software programs with RAW convertors, will have to look at all 3 and see if there is a difference. Thanks

Using the reference card a few times at least isn't a bad exercise to go through in the overall journey towards photographic enlightenment

The whole topic of WB "correction' is a pet peeve of mine. For example you mention the dog having black fur "with a lot of blue in it". In-fact we know that dog's fur isn't blue. It's black. The blue that we see is bluish light that is reflected off of the shiny oils on the animal's fur. Some people would argue that you should correct white balance to remove the blue cast from the fur. And in lieu of any other neutral point in a scene that can actually be a good way to find true WB(try it). But in fact the blue/black is what our eyes perceive. So why would we want to "correct" it? However, the blue/black fur can be a clue for you. The fur is reflecting blue light. So, in truth though you may be thinking that your green cast is due to reflecting green light, it may in fact be due to the scene being lit with cooler light than you think and the camera WB is correcting for it (i.e.shifting toward yellow).

Another exercise you may want to go through for informational purposes it so compare how the RAW files are rendered by Nikon's (free)software versus your RAW converter of choice. You may find that your RAW converter is rendering the images with a color/temperature bias. Not suggesting you switch software. Just to gain understanding that there is no true "standard" conversion.