Flash Exposure Compensation

[Digital]

I have two Nikon Speedlites: SB600, and SB910.
Is it possible to be able to use FEC (Flash Exposure Compensation (FEC) in the TTL mode?


Bruce

[Manfred M]

Yes. In fact that is where you want to use it.

[Digital]

Yes. In fact that is where you want to use it.

Manfred, I can always count on you to respond.
Is the camera's EC linked to the flash in TTL?

Bruce

[Manfred M]

Manfred, I can always count on you to respond.
Is the camera's EC linked to the flash in TTL?

Bruce

Yes, both EC and FEC can be used at the same time, but they operate independently from each other for Nikon. I believe Canon integrates them, but will leave that to the Canon shooters to explain.

I rarely use TTL flash because I find it can be unpredictable and inconsistent. I tend to like shooting flash on manual mode except in "gun & run" shooting situations, where I can live with the inconsistencies.

[Digital]

Yes, both EC and FEC can be used at the same time, but they operate independently from each other for Nikon. I believe Canon integrates them, but will leave that to the Canon shooters to explain.

I rarely use TTL flash because I find it can be unpredictable and inconsistent. I tend to like shooting flash on manual mode except in "gun & run" shooting situations, where I can live with the inconsistencies.

Manfred, how do you set FEC on a Nikon Speedlite in the TTL mode? I understand in the manual mode: however not the automatic mode.

I agree with you as far as TTL vs. manual. In TTL the output of the flash is dependent on your aperture, ISO and the shutter speed you have selected or the camera selects for you. As the variables are changed, your flash output varies. In manual mode you have consistent flash output no matter what your settings (ISO, aperture, shutter) are.

In reading van Niekerk's books he uses TTL a lot although he also does work in manual as well. Im going to shoot "fast and dirty" in the very near future. Intially, I will use TTL with the camera in manual mode; however I will switch to manual on the flash at some point to attempt to balance the flash with the ambient light. More on this later.

Bruce

[Stagecoach]

Is the camera's EC linked to the flash in TTL?

Bruce

Yes, for a Nikon D800. But not on some of the newer models or older.

When in TTL flash for the D800 (note above)

a) If you apply +1 EC (Camera comp) it will also automatically apply +1 FEC (Flash comp), the resultant will be : +1 EC and +1 FEC

b) If you were to then apply +1 FEC (Flash comp) to a) above the resultant will be : +1 EC and +2 FEC

c) But if you were to apply -2 FEC (Flash comp) to a) above the resultant will be : +1 EC and -1 FEC

This is described further in this article https://neilvn.com/tangents/flash-ph...-compensation/ but his reference to the D800 is incorrect.

how do you set FEC on a Nikon Speedlite in the TTL mode?

On the SB600 with it turned on in TTL mode press the + or - buttons and the comp is shown in a window.

Edited to refer to camera model.

[Manfred M]

Manfred, how do you set FEC on a Nikon Speedlite in the TTL mode? I understand in the manual mode: however not the automatic mode.

On the D810 there is a flash button on the camera. I press that down and rotate the front wheel that lets me change the flash compensation in 1/3 stop increments from +1 to -3.

On the older models EC / FEC was "cumulative", so adding +1 EC and -1 FEC would balance out. I have not tested it on the D810, so am not 100% sure.

[Digital]

On the D810 there is a flash button on the camera. I press that down and rotate the front wheel that lets me change the flash compensation in 1/3 stop increments from +1 to -3.

On the older models EC / FEC was "cumulative", so adding +1 EC and -1 FEC would balance out. I have not tested it on the D810, so am not 100% sure.

I am still using a D300. So my guess would be if I change the EC on the camera it will automatically set the FEC on the flash, as Grahame has pointed out.

Bruce

[Stagecoach]

I am still using a D300. So my guess would be if I change the EC on the camera it will automatically set the FEC on the flash, as Grahame has pointed out.

Bruce

Now that's interesting Bruce as I have just tried it with my old D300 and putting +1 EC (camera comp) does not put +1 FEC (flash comp) as it does with my D800. So in this case on some "older models" it's not cumulative.

The best way you can see what is happening for your camera is to shoot it using different ECs/FECs and look at the rear screen shooting data after each shot.

[Digital]

Now that's interesting Bruce as I have just tried it with my old D300 and putting +1 EC (camera comp) does not put +1 FEC (flash comp) as it does with my D800. So in this case on some "older models" it's not cumulative.

The best way you can see what is happening for your camera is to shoot it using different ECs/FECs and look at the rear screen shooting data after each shot.

Grahame, I have an idea that using the EC on the camera with the flash in TTL mode has the effect of increasing or decreasing the flash output depending on the EC you have dialed in. In other words, regarding the flash unit itself, there is no button on the flash unit that controls the FEC in the TTL mode. It is done on the +/- control on the camera body.

Bruce

[Stagecoach]

Grahame, I have an idea that using the EC on the camera with the flash in TTL mode has the effect of increasing or decreasing the flash output depending on the EC you have dialed in. In other words, regarding the flash unit itself, there is no button on the flash unit that controls the FEC in the TTL mode. It is done on the +/- control on the camera body.

Bruce

Bruce,

I'll comment with specific reference to the D300 with the SB600 in front of me

Grahame, I have an idea that using the EC on the camera with the flash in TTL mode has the effect of increasing or decreasing the flash output depending on the EC you have dialed in.

Firstly I think we need to take care of specifying what mode we are in.

With the D300 in Manual set to 1/60, f/8, ISO 200 I took a picture with the flash set to TTL and no comp on anything, perfect exposure. I then put +2 EC (camera comp) took the pic again, brighter. I then put +4 EC (camera comp) pic much brighter. For each shot the speed, aperture and ISO remains indicated the same in the Exif and the exposure has changed.

In other words, regarding the flash unit itself, there is no button on the flash unit that controls the FEC in the TTL mode. It is done on the +/- control on the camera body.

With the camera again in Manual 1/60, f/8, ISO 200 and the flash in TTL with no EC comp adjusted on the camera body FEC can be adjusted on the body of the SB600 by pressing the +/- buttons . With FEC adjusted on the flash body only a max of +3 FEC is available. It can also be done from the FEC button on the camera body but only to a max of +1 FEC. You can use both to achieve +4 FEC.

[george013]

Some explanations http://nikonclspracticalguide.blogsp...-metering.html.

George

[pnodrog]

For Nikon EC is applied as a realignment of the metered value (a bit like tare on scales). It remains as an offset for all subsequent exposure modes including manual (the center of the exposure bar has had the EC offset applied). Any flash exposure (and its compensation FCO) is based on the exposure reading with the EC applied. (a bit like tare value = 0) not the absolute meter reading.

Clear as mud?

I understand unlike Nikon most Canon cameras ignore EC in manual mode. (equivalent of revert to untared reading)

[Stagecoach]

For Nikon EC is applied as a realignment of the metered value (a bit like tare on scales). It remains as an offset for all subsequent exposure modes including manual (the center of the exposure bar has had the EC offset applied). Any flash exposure compensation is based on the exposure reading with the EC applied. (a bit like tare value = 0) not the absolute meter reading.

Clear as mud?

Absolutely. Thus when in Manual and we put a camera EC in (without re-centering the meter bar and no FEC) the TTL flash output is then determined by the offset camera meter.

[george013]

The same behaviour of the flash is also in A and S and there the offset is not changed.

The flash metering system is taking in account the used aperture, since this is effecting the flash.
Out of my thumb: half press the shutter buttom will evoke the ambient light metering. The settings are known for this by then. Pressing further the preflash will fire and the amount of flash power will be calculated, based on the known settings. Flash exposure compensation will be based on that result.
Mirror goes up and the picture is taken.

George

[William W]

EXPOSURE COMPENSATION – Canon DSLRs

For Nikon EC is applied as a realignment of the metered value (a bit like tare on scales). . .
I understand unlike Nikon most Canon cameras ignore EC in manual mode. (equivalent of revert to untared reading)

It is not so much that EC is 'ignored' when the Canon EOS Digital Camera is in Manual Mode, it is that EC is impossible to in initiate because there is no button or dial available.

This explanation was written by Professor Robin Sibson in 2013 and I think it still applies to all, or nearly all Canon DSLRs today:

"I have seen a lot of muddled thinking on this issue in various forums, usually arising from the semantics of the word "manual". I hoep (sic) that the following clarifies the issue.

There are three parameters affecting exposure: aperture setting, shutter speed, and ISO. You can set each one of these manually, or allow the camera to choose. Here are the eight combinations.

1 M mode, explicit ISO: all manual
2 M mode, ISO A: aperture and shutter speed set manually, camera chooses ISO
3 Av mode, explicit ISO: aperture and ISO set manually, camera chooses shutter speed
4 Av mode, ISO A: aperture set manually, camera chooses combination of shutter speed and ISO
5 Tv mode, explicit ISO: shutter speed and ISO set manually, camera chooses aperture
6 Tv mode, ISO A: shutter speed set manually, camera chooses combination of aperture and ISO
7 P mode, explicit ISO: ISO set manually, camera chooses combination of aperture and shutter speed
8 P mode, ISO A: camera chooses combination of aperture, shutter speed and ISO

The concept of exposure compensation as a separate setting is meaningless in case 1 because the camera is not making any choices for you; you just choose different settings to apply any desired compensation.
We are all familiar with exposure compensation in cases 3 to 8 inclusive, achieved by using the QCD while metering is active, and with the setting being persistent for future exposures.

The problem arises in case 2, often dismissed as meaningless by people who are not thinking straight on the basis that "you can't expect to apply exposure compensation in manual mode". Of course exposure compensation is meaningful: the camera is making a choice for you (ISO setting) in order to achieve what it thinks is correct exposure; but if, for any of the usual reasons, you know better, you may want the camera to give you a higher or lower ISO setting. The problem is that you can't do it.

One reason for this may be that there is no spare dial with which to apply EC. In M mode (normally) you have aperture and shutter speed set (one way round or the other) using the main dial and QCD, so the QCD is not available to set EC as it is in other modes. But there are surely more than enough buttons on the camera to allow this to be overcome. For example, the SET button does nothing by default when the camera is shooting, and the things that it can be programmed to do while shooting duplicate functionality available with other controls. It would require no more than a minor firmware tweak to allow SET+main dial to be programmed to do EC in case 2.

Would this be useful? Unequivocally YES."

Ref: "Photonet" (retrieved), "Canon EOS Forum"
Copyright material reproduced under fair usage - education.

WW

[george013]

I am still using a D300. So my guess would be if I change the EC on the camera it will automatically set the FEC on the flash, as Grahame has pointed out.

Bruce

No. The flash will try to get a good exposure based on the preflash and the camera setting.
Say the mode is A. If you dial an EC of -2 the shutterspeed will change, but that doesn't have effect on the flash.
If the mode is S, then the aperture will change. To maintain a correct exposure the flash power will change too.

Don't forget FEC is something else as flash power. FEC is a value relative to a "correct flash exposure". Playing with FEC will change the flash exposure.

You do have a FEC button on your D300.

I tried to check it with my camera but the house is to little for this experiment. So I hope I got it right.

George

[pnodrog]

EXPOSURE COMPENSATION – Canon DSLRs



It is not so much that EC is 'ignored' when the Canon EOS Digital Camera is in Manual Mode, it is that EC is impossible to in initiate because there is no button or dial available.

This explanation was written by Professor Robin Sibson in 2013 and I think it still applies to all, or nearly all Canon DSLRs today:



Ref: "Photonet" (retrieved), "Canon EOS Forum"
Copyright material reproduced under fair usage - education.

WW

Thanks for the clarification Bill. I was aware there was a difference. I disagree with the Profs claim that EC is irrelevant in Manual Mode. With Nikon, it is personal preference as to whether you apply a correction by EC or a Manual offset for the same outcome. IF EC is set you just need to be aware of its effect.

Nikon users do not end up with the odd situation (2 on his list) that applies to Canon that in Manual with Auto ISO, no EC is available. I see this as a glaring shortcoming. If you were taking photographs on a ski slope or a black sand beach it could be incredibly annoying.

Due to my computer/electronic background, I approve in the consistency of user interfaces for all types of equipment and in this respect, Nikon is providing it.

[William W]

Aside -

. . . I disagree with the Profs claim that EC is irrelevant in Manual Mode. With Nikon, it is personal preference as to whether you apply a correction by EC or a Manual offset for the same outcome. IF EC is set you just need to be aware of its effect.

Hiya Paul,

haha!

I believe that I have seen him argue that: I think that he chose his words carefully. He wrote Exposure Compensation was "meaningless", not "irrelevant" in case 1.

I take that to mean: because, in Case 1. the Camera's TTL Light Meter does NOT impact on the Exposure that the camera makes, then the concept of 'exposure compensation' is meaningless in this case.

Having had several conversations with Robin on the topic of the functionality differences between Nikon and Canon Digital Cameras, I am reasonably sure that he would agree with you that it is a functional advantage that Nikon Users have the choice to "engage the Exposure Compensation function" in Case 1, if they like that way of working.

I do too.

I understand that in simple terms, engaging EC in Case 1 for Nikon DSLRs it simply offsets the "0" (zero) Position of the TTL Meter in the Camera's Viewfinder Display.

That to my thinking is simply and also practical, especially useful for the many Photographers who would typically mostly only use tow camera modes and switch between Av (Aperture Priority Mode) and M (Manual Mode).

Canon does not provide that choice for users of their Cameras.

WW

[William W]

. . . Nikon users do not end up with the odd situation (2 on his list) that applies to Canon that in Manual with Auto ISO, no EC is available. I see this as a glaring shortcoming. If you were taking photographs on a ski slope or a black sand beach it could be incredibly annoying.

Due to my computer/electronic background, I approve in the consistency of user interfaces for all types of equipment and in this respect, Nikon is providing it.

Emphatically Yes and Yes.
If Robin were still with us, I am sure that he would agree too.

WW