A Question for you all ...

[carregwen]

To be honest Rob, I think she's exceptionally intelligent and motivated - took her only two years from when she moved to NZ to learn English and pass her senior high school exams, but I think it's a classic case of knowing how to do the technical work of a business (singing), but not knowing how to run a business that does that technical work (be super-successful as a singer).

I think you have said before (and I completely agree with you), it takes more than a specific ability to become successful. You need a range of other abilities as well, all of which are the building blocks of your success. I'm still working on digging the foundations...

Tell me again what Paris Hilton is famous for? (2nd thoughts, I don't think I want anyone to repeat that in public!)

Even I know the answer to that one. It's an hotel!

[Wirefox]

There are 3 saleable quantities for celeb...the good, the bad and the ugly. Paris scores on 2 of these so she is successful. It is also a rather sad fact that celebs have to be manufactured these days. They need the talent behind them not necessarily within them. Your Yulia probably has not got the talent behind her (managers, promoters, svengalis). And, I am not being derogatory here but NZ is probably not the place to settle if you want to hit the big time (Gollum excepted).

I can really see your point Colin but I think you are on a loser. There is far more to celeb than an individual. There is a whole army behind them, creating, maintaining and if necessary besmirching the image. The individual is the raw material. The celeb is the manufactured finished product. There are exceptions...or at least they would have us believe there are....there is more than one way to sell a vacuum cleaner after all.

[Colin Southern]

@ Steve

Hi Steve,

Thanks for that. Possibly I didn't get my point across very well ... I'm not trying to turn ordinary folks into celebrities ... I just think there could well be a market (with it's associated promotion) for making them look like a cover girl in one of my shoots.

So rather than take the position "come let me take your photo", I think it may be way more powerful to say "come let me me make you look like a cover girl".

[Shadowman]

There are 3 saleable quantities for celeb...the good, the bad and the ugly. Paris scores on 2 of these so she is successful. It is also a rather sad fact that celebs have to be manufactured these days. They need the talent behind them not necessarily within them. Your Yulia probably has not got the talent behind her (managers, promoters, svengalis). And, I am not being derogatory here but NZ is probably not the place to settle if you want to hit the big time (Gollum excepted).

I can really see your point Colin but I think you are on a loser. There is far more to celeb than an individual. There is a whole army behind them, creating, maintaining and if necessary besmirching the image. The individual is the raw material. The celeb is the manufactured finished product. There are exceptions...or at least they would have us believe there are....there is more than one way to sell a vacuum cleaner after all.

And that's part of the problem, "3 saleable quantities for celeb...the good, the bad and the ugly." some of these well publicized citizens behave like they are celebrities, only because the paparazzi and news organizations keep sticking their cameras in these people's faces every time the toss their gum on the sidewalk. If the ratings were to drop on these celeb television shows and the magazines stop selling then these supposed celebs would have no choice but to go back to their daytime jobs.

[PopsPhotos]

I grew up a few miles from Las Vegas, Nevada, in a family who owned a newspaper. I was able to see many "stars" BMU and AMU (Before MakeUp and After MakeUp.) I was of an age not to be taken by the sex appeal, but by that actual appearance. Most were attractive, but very few were truly beautiful. The beauty of some of them showed when they turned their personality on. Then the force of their personality could make one giddy.

A few looked much the same whether done up for the stage or seen on the street, shopping. John Wayne, Red Skelton, Nat Cole, as others, of course. However, there were the ones like Betty Grable, Joan Crawford, Katharine Hepburn, Clara Bow and others who actually looked "better" without the make up.

The pictures you display here make exceptional use of angle, lighting and expression to camoflage "defects" that are found in everyone. This is easy for a painter, but is much more difficult for a photographer. Hiding, reducing, emphasizing and flattering is made even more difficult by the distortion inherent in any 2 dimensional representation of a 3 dimensional face.

This is one of the primary reasons I closed my studio in 1958 and went into electronics. I was too literal to be able to perform those "tricks" easily and too impatient to put up with customers who wanted the picture to look like their inner image of themselves.

You make it look easy, lad. There are times I'd like to flay you for that.

Pops

[Wirefox]

I just think there could well be a market (with it's associated promotion) for making them look like a cover girl in one of my shoots.

Too right there is and judging by recently posted shots you will make a excellent job of it. It may however need to take a fresh look at how an individual image is sold. Whilst there will still be a market for prints, especially from doting parents, there may need a one off sale of limited rights to post low grade images on facebook (or similar). If kids are happy with a shot and it makes them look good (in their eyes) then that is where that image will be publicised.The other trick to this must be capturing what the teenager wants to look like rather than what we would prefer them to look like (an that is worlds apart). This could turn our sensibilities on their heads....but I suspect this approach would be very marketable

[carregwen]

The other trick to this must be capturing what the teenager wants to look like rather than what we would prefer them to look like (an that is worlds apart). This could turn our sensibilities on their heads....but I suspect this approach would be very marketable

Excellent point. And I think that very neatly defines the difference between artistic and comercial.

[Colin Southern]

You make it look easy, lad. There are times I'd like to flay you for that.

Pops

Thanks Pops -- that's certainly a nice compliment I'm sure that few realise how much work goes into those "it looks so easy" shots.

[arith]

I grew up a few miles from Las Vegas, Nevada, in a family who owned a newspaper. I was able to see many "stars" BMU and AMU (Before MakeUp and After MakeUp.) I was of an age not to be taken by the sex appeal, but by that actual appearance. Most were attractive, but very few were truly beautiful. The beauty of some of them showed when they turned their personality on. Then the force of their personality could make one giddy.

A few looked much the same whether done up for the stage or seen on the street, shopping. John Wayne, Red Skelton, Nat Cole, as others, of course. However, there were the ones like Betty Grable, Joan Crawford, Katharine Hepburn, Clara Bow and others who actually looked "better" without the make up.

The pictures you display here make exceptional use of angle, lighting and expression to camoflage "defects" that are found in everyone. This is easy for a painter, but is much more difficult for a photographer. Hiding, reducing, emphasizing and flattering is made even more difficult by the distortion inherent in any 2 dimensional representation of a 3 dimensional face.

This is one of the primary reasons I closed my studio in 1958 and went into electronics. I was too literal to be able to perform those "tricks" easily and too impatient to put up with customers who wanted the picture to look like their inner image of themselves.

You make it look easy, lad. There are times I'd like to flay you for that.

Pops

Cor Pops; did you know Sid Pearson? He was special effects cameraman in Hollywood and worked on films like 'Mutiny on the Bounty' and '633 Squadron'. I think he might have had something to do with that rabbit 'Harvey'. He was head chemist at a firm I worked for and I was his assistant, he was always bringing photo's of stars.

[Fleshpiston]

Interesting thread. My sister has a successful singing and acting career and yet I have never seen her as I would a celeb even when I was chatting to Brian May with my sister next to me and she is on bill boards in the westend and times square. I think in some respects their hard work is the only thing that makes them a celeb. My reason for that is (singers and actors only) they (most) go through the whole stage school and many, many jobs of endless working hours before they get "that break". Now having a good image is part of it and having a good manager is also part of it but without the hard work it nearly always ends in nothing.

[LeoLeo]

Hi Gents,

This is a never ending "story". I've met famous celebrities in Romania (foreign and domestics) due to my job, as IT guy. Long story short, there are 3 major categories of celebs, natural celebs, acting celebs, "man made" celebs. This subject can be a 27 volumes story, and is not the point here.
Coming back to Colin's picture. It's not about photography techniques, it's more about marketing and "what they are looking for".
Good friends of mine are working in this business, and I was working in media companies for more than 7 years, and they are choosing ALWAYS "impact photos". I saw numerous castings in Leo Burnett media agency (in Romania), and I know how they judge the photos. That picture you've made is a very good bussiness card for you not for that girl, in the momment when you want a contract with an agency. My wife is working for a large East European cosmetics distributors and I have been many times invited at different events for cosmetics products. I saw how a make up artist transform a normal girl in a "cover for magazine", and how the photographer ask her how to act. I really love to take pictures, but maybe this is why I didn't touch the camera before having my son.
I normal person could be a cover for magazine? YES, with a good make up artist and a good photographer.
One more thing, media agencies never look at close portrets in 1st stage of selection, standard portofolio is "10-15 photos, full body posture, 2-3 close portrets". How many picture should have a model ? maybe arround 150, and to choose between them based on what job is willing to achieve.

I don't want to upset anybody, and those are my personal "feelings" about the subject. I'm not even a decent photographer to judge somebody else, but I saw that industry from behind.

Leo

[Shadowman]

Interesting thread. My sister has a successful singing and acting career and yet I have never seen her as I would a celeb even when I was chatting to Brian May with my sister next to me and she is on bill boards in the westend and times square. I think in some respects their hard work is the only thing that makes them a celeb. My reason for that is (singers and actors only) they (most) go through the whole stage school and many, many jobs of endless working hours before they get "that break". Now having a good image is part of it and having a good manager is also part of it but without the hard work it nearly always ends in nothing.

Jim,

I am sure most of the celebs siblings don't see them in that way also, but I am sure many a mom's do.

[Shadowman]

Hi Gents,

This is a never ending "story". I've meet famous celebrities in Romania (foreign and domestics) due to my job, as IT guy. Long story short, there are 3 major categories of celebs, natural celebs, acting celebs, "man made" celebs. This subject can be a 27 volumes story, and is not the point here.
Comming back to Colin's picture. It's not about photography techniques, it's more about marketing and "what they are looking for".
Good friends of mine are working in this bussiness, and I was working in media companies for mor than 7 years, and they are choosing ALLWAYS "impact photos". I saw numerous castings in Leo Burnett media agency (in Romania), and I know how they judge the photos. That picture you've made is a very good bussiness card for you not for that girl, in the momment when you want a contract with an agency. My wife is working for a large East European cosmetics distributors and I have been many times invited at different events for cosmetics products. I saw haw a make up artist transform a normal girl in a "cover for magazine", and how the photographer ask her how to act. I really love to take pictures, but maybe this is why I didn't touch the camera before having my son.
I normal person could be a corver for magazine? YES, with a good make up artist and a good photograpther.
One more thing, media agencies never look at close portrets in 1st stage of selection, standard portofolio is "10-15 photos, full body posture, 2-3 close portrets". How many picture should have a model ? maybe arround 150, and to choose between them based on what job is willing to achieve.

I don't want to upset anybody, and those are my personal "feelings" about the subject. I'm not even a decent photographer to judge somebody else, but I saw that industry from behind.

Leo

Leo,

And I am sure there are many actors and models who photograph well, look good on camera, and have that dazzling personality that we see in many of the greats, but for some reason whether a special look is in vogue at the moment, or their managers just can't seem to get to the right people, some very talented people are overlooked and will never achieve that so called thing we call "celebrity status".

[PopsPhotos]

Arith, no, I did not know that man. I was (and am) relatively reclusive, which is a natural trait for most of us with Asperger's Syndrome. I met the "stars" and celebraties when I was along with my father, his photogrpher, or his reporter as they interviewed those people. Some of them used to come to the house and visit with my parents as friends, which is how I met Clara Bow and Rex Bell. I met John Wayne when he came over to me and sat beside me after Dad had interviewed him. I met Nat Cole at the only club in Vegas which would allow him to perform, in those days. Keep in mind that I was quite young, as this was during and just after WWII. We sold the newspaper in about 1950.

I did meet with a couple of top photographers, but that was, again, through the newspaper contacts. Bill Belknap took a liking to me after he returned from the war and helped me develop a bit of how to see as well as look.

Pops