New Equipment

[xpatUSA]

George said: ...Going from the warm inside to the cold outside is something different. The body will cool through its material. What's getting cold first is that material with less heat resistance: the glass. The relative warm air in the camera is cooling down and condensation will happen on that cold surface inside the lens...

No doubt the theory is sound. Yet without taking any extraordinary precautions with equipment hygiene I've managed to shoot hundreds of thousands of frames over the course of 17 years in Alaska without ever having experienced visible internal fogging in a lens. So what's up?

I spent a few winter months up near Deadhorse long ago. I don't remember any fogging or icing inside my unsealed 42mm mount Carl Zeiss 50mm either, although time spent outside was pretty brief for this Southern Boy. So, out of interest, I looked up Deadhorse just now. According to the NWS, it's -14C and 87% RH at the airport with a dewpoint of -16C. I wonder what the conditions are inside a typical building up there?

Moving away from my sealed system and moving to Dave's and Dan's unsealed containers, I'd agree that, for there to be no condensation on a lens glass (inside), there must indeed be an unknown factor that is not yet accounted for in this sub-discussion.

[DanK]

These are the two models I've been looking at the most:
Canon EOS 7D Mark II DSLR - which is a cropped camera
Canon EOS 6D Mark II DSLR which is a full frame camera

Not to complicate things, but you are mixing apples and oranges a bit.

To oversimplify, the 7DII is is the closest crop-sensor equivalent to the full frame 5D IV. These are high-end, semi-professional (I would say professional) cameras, with pretty much all of the current bells and whistles. The step down from each are the 77D and 80D crops and the 6D II full frame. If you look at the specs, you will see this. One sign is apparent if you look at the backs of the lower line: they have different controls and lack the toggle of the 7D/5D series.

Richard mentioned one difference: the limited AF system on the 6DII. You will see if you look at the specs that the AF system on the 6D II is quite a bit inferior to that on the 77D and 80D as well.

So all in all, I think the more useful comparison to the 7DII is the 77D and 80D series. Just my two cents.

As of right now, Canon has dropped the refurb price on the 7DII to about $1,000.

[AlwaysOnAuto]

This thread, from another forum, says it all as to why I'm saying you should re-look at Sony:

https://www.talkemount.com/threads/t...to-arts.17646/

You're at a major crossroad in your photographic journey. The path you choose can have many branches off it, or can be a very limiting one.

[xpatUSA]

This thread, from another forum, says it all as to why I'm saying you should re-look at Sony:

https://www.talkemount.com/threads/t...to-arts.17646/

You're at a major crossroad in your photographic journey. The path you choose can have many branches off it, or can be a very limiting one.

Quite right and well-put.

I am on such a limiting path: last week I was offered a Fuji X-trans body-only at a very low price. In spite of some technical interest in X-trans, I just couldn't justify it, as can be understood by clicking on my gear-list below . . .

[skitterbug]

Hi Richard - There is a lot of information in your post #76. And the photos are stunning. I'm back home from doing errands and am now reading through the newer posts but I think I've made up my mind about the camera body. Now to decide what I need to contemplate lenses. Your info has helped!

[AlwaysOnAuto]

As I travel down my own photographic pathway, I find the more options I have the better.

It's been an interesting and fun run so far.

[NorthernFocus]

...Moving away from my sealed system and moving to Dave's and Dan's unsealed containers, I'd agree that, for there to be no condensation on a lens glass (inside), there must indeed be an unknown factor that is not yet accounted for in this sub-discussion.

Indeed something is yet unaccounted for.

As mentioned previously, the thermo is clear enough. In most cases during winter here in Alaska
condensation has to be occurring inside the lens. So why no fogging? I suggest because it's driven by dynamic heat transfer in a complex system not by static thermodynamics in a simple system that is in a state of equilibrium. Indeed modeling the heat transfer would require a fairly complex finite element model to simulate.

But if one is prepared to conceptualize based on known principles/properties but limited hard data I think we can see the forest through the trees. Simply put, as the system cools the lens barrel and front element are the coldest surfaces that are exposed to the internal gas/vapor mixture. I suspect the barrel effectively acts as a condenser and dries out the inside air before the lens elements are cold enough to form condensation. Which could be simulated by the jar within a jar test(i.e. the outer jar should condense vapor but not the inner jar).

No doubt someone will mention that plastic barrels have a lower heat transfer coefficient than glass. Likely so but other than for the front element in the lens that fact is not relevant. The cold barrel has to drive the cooling of everything within it. As for the front element, well it is likely much thicker than the barrel so even with a higher coefficient takes longer for the inner surface to reach dew point of the vapor inside. And whatever gets cold first becomes the water magnet.

So why does Sandy's lens fog? I suspect for that particular lens the front lens element does indeed cool faster than the barrel wall and becomes the condenser. Either due to relative coefficients or geometry or both.

So yeah, Sandy, leave that lens on the shelf when it's cold outside

[george013]

I spent a few winter months up near Deadhorse long ago. I don't remember any fogging or icing inside my unsealed 42mm mount Carl Zeiss 50mm either, although time spent outside was pretty brief for this Southern Boy. So, out of interest, I looked up Deadhorse just now. According to the NWS, it's -14C and 87% RH at the airport with a dewpoint of -16C. I wonder what the conditions are inside a typical building up there?

Moving away from my sealed system and moving to Dave's and Dan's unsealed containers, I'd agree that, for there to be no condensation on a lens glass (inside), there must indeed be an unknown factor that is not yet accounted for in this sub-discussion.

I think of something as his housing conditions. If Sandy lives in a house with a rather high temperature and relative humidity and is taking the lens from the camera, then the camera is getting filled with that air. Going outside in the cold will result in condensation on the inside of the lens/glass. That won't disappear since the vapor doesn't disappear. The resolution I think of is take the lens from the camera in the cold outside and let that air in the camera being refreshed. That's the only way to get rid of that to much of vapor.

George

[skitterbug]

So yeah, Sandy, leave that lens on the shelf when it's cold outside

Maybe I ought to stay inside too! I don't like the cold any better than the camera equipment! <LOL>

So I have just one more question? If a camera is refurbished, has it generally seen much wear and tear? There isn't any way to know that before hand through the specs is there? From the sounds of the various comments, it sounds like most are comfortable in buying refurbished cameras in particular? To save $400 to $500 is quite a bit. Is it worth the risk? Is there anything to be cautious about? And yes this is the EOS 7D Mark II body on Canon's site.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

ADDED: I decided to take a chance on Canon refurbished and have pushed the "yes, I want to buy it" button. The deed is done. I put an EF100mm f/2.8L Macro IS lens with it for now.
Thanks everyone for putting up with all my questions! I'm looking forward to new equipment! Yay.

[NorthernFocus]

...If a camera is refurbished, has it generally seen much wear and tear? There isn't any way to know that before hand through the specs is there? ...

That is one way that buying a refurb is a bit of a crap shoot. There is no way to tell in advance how much use it has seen. However, there is a low probability that it has been used much. Keep in mind the source of refurbs is returns for whatever reason but at any event had to have been returned either within the seller's grace period(probably 30 days) or within the manufacturer's warranty period (one year for Nikon). But.. you can't really tell until you get it. If it is a body you can immediately check the shutter count. If it's really high chances are the shutter was replaced but at any rate you could return it. That assumes you buy it from someone with a fairly liberal return policy.

From the sounds of the various comments, it sounds like most are comfortable in buying refurbished cameras in particular? To save $400 to $500 is quite a bit. Is it worth the risk? Is there anything to be cautious about? And yes this is the EOS 7D Mark II body on Canon's site.

I've bought a few pieces of Nikon refurb. They only offer a 90 day warranty. I see on Canon's site they provide a one year warranty on refurbs so I personally wouldn't hesitate.

Honestly the only reason I buy new is 1) the item is so new that it's not yet showing up on used/refurb market, or 2) it is a VERY expensive item and not worth the risk regardless of how small.

The only caution I would take is to purchase from someone(like amazon) that will take it back if I immediately decide to return it(per above)

[skitterbug]

If it is a body you can immediately check the shutter count. If it's really high chances are the shutter was replaced but at any rate you could return it. That assumes you buy it from someone with a fairly liberal return policy.

Hi Dan - How do you check shutter count? And how high would be unacceptable to you?

Here I thought I was done asking questions! <grin> Nope, I've always got more!

Thanks!

[xpatUSA]

Indeed something is yet unaccounted for.

As mentioned previously, the thermo is clear enough. In most cases during winter here in Alaska
condensation has to be occurring inside the lens. So why no fogging? I suggest because it's driven by dynamic heat transfer in a complex system not by static thermodynamics in a simple system that is in a state of equilibrium. Indeed modeling the heat transfer would require a fairly complex finite element model to simulate.

But if one is prepared to conceptualize based on known principles/properties but limited hard data I think we can see the forest through the trees. Simply put, as the system cools the lens barrel and front element are the coldest surfaces that are exposed to the internal gas/vapor mixture. I suspect the barrel effectively acts as a condenser and dries out the inside air before the lens elements are cold enough to form condensation. Which could be simulated by the jar within a jar test(i.e. the outer jar should condense vapor but not the inner jar).

No doubt someone will mention that plastic barrels have a lower heat transfer coefficient than glass. Likely so but other than for the front element in the lens that fact is not relevant. The cold barrel has to drive the cooling of everything within it. As for the front element, well it is likely much thicker than the barrel so even with a higher coefficient takes longer for the inner surface to reach dew point of the vapor inside. And whatever gets cold first becomes the water magnet.

I concur, Dan, as far as stepping outside is concerned. The missing factor is, as you implied a few posts back, the dynamics of the heat-transfer causing different internal surface temperatures to occur during the transition to stable conditions inside.

Well done!

[NorthernFocus]

Hi Dan - How do you check shutter count? And how high would be unacceptable to you?

Here I thought I was done asking questions! <grin> Nope, I've always got more!

Thanks!

Shutter count is a field in image EXIF data. You can Google shutter count and several sites will pop up that will read the shutter count for an uploaded image. You can test it now with your existing camera by firing a jpeg and uploading it to one of the websites.

As far as what's acceptable, unfortunately it depends The best way to think about shutter count is like the odometer on a car. But one difference than cars is that all cameras have a manufacturer stated life expectancy. The 7dii stated life expectancy is 200,000 clicks. That number is supposed to be based on statistical test data. I immediately cut that number in half, so 100,000. Then you have to decide how many frames you think you'll shoot in a year. Divide that number into the 100,000 and you have a life expectancy. For me I figure about 25000 frames a year for a given camera. So for my use I'd assume a four year life out of a 7Dii. If you only shoot 5000 frames a year you get 20 years. Or until the camera fills up with condensation and dies

[rtbaum]

Sandy, I am glad that you have come to a decision on your new journey. Now that the stressing about what to buy is done, you can focus on learning to achieve the best from what you have. I think that going with a high end crop and a macro will provide many hours of enjoyment and will open new venues. Macro, more than other forms of photography, seems to bring out the "MacGuyver" in me. I have a clamp for flowers that entails heavy gauge electrical wire, alligator clip, and a battery clamp.....when you start getting into macro you will understand . Another one involves Kleenex, rubber band, and a Pringles can.

[skitterbug]

Shutter count is a field in image EXIF data. You can Google shutter count and several sites will pop up that will read the shutter count for an uploaded image. You can test it now with your existing camera by firing a jpeg and uploading it to one of the websites.

No matter what site I chose, after uploading a JPEG, I got the same answer - that the shutter count was not recorded in the metadata (or something to that wording). I downloaded an ExifTool and ran it and got the same results - no shutter count. Searching the web, it "appears" that Canon doesn't have this info available - at least not for my Rebel t3i. I give up! I can hope that the 7D Mark II cooperates a bit better about this info.

Or until the camera fills up with condensation and dies

Now I am laughing! Thanks for that one!

[skitterbug]

Hi Randy - It has been an adventure but I am looking forward to the new equipment. I know I will like the lens. I just hope that the refurbished camera body is decent as well. Since it is coming from Canon, it should be okay. It has a year's worth of warranty so I reckon if there is something wrong with it, I can return it to them!

I've always wanted to take "close up" pics of anything of interest! I am really looking forward to that. I plan on adding a lens or two but for now, I can use my older lenses until I make decisions about what to add next!

Thanks for adding to this thread! It is interesting having people offer opinions!

[DanK]

Sandy,

Everything I have bought refurbished from Canon has been like new. The sole exception was a minor spot on one lens hood. I have zero hesitation about buying their refurbs when the price is right. The one-year guarantee clinches the deal for me.

In fact, when I bought my refurbished 7D from them, I briefly worried about shutter count, but in the end, I didn't even check it. (There are software options on the web for checking it.)

The lens you bought is my primary macro lens. I can't sing its praises enough. It's simply a superb lens. And it has hybrid IS, which unlike regular IS/ VC makes a considerable difference at macro distances. Regular IS compensates for angular motion, but the bigger problem when you are very close is motion parallel to the sensor, and hybrid IS corrects for that as well. When I got my lens, I tested it, doing a bunch of handheld macro shots with and without IS, and the IS clearly helps.

Enjoy your new gear! Be patient: the 7D II is a complex and highly customizable machine, and if you are like me, it will take a number of hours to get familiar with it and to set the controls in the way you find most helpful. When I got my 5D III, which is fairly similar in that regard, I just left it out with the manual and periodically sat down for a while to work through a subset of the controls or options. But once you know the camera and have it set up as you like, you fill find it a huge step up from what you had.

Dan

[skitterbug]

Hi Dan - And thank you for your message! I was really agonizing about going for the refurbished camera body. Your message is just what I needed. I guess I figured since Canon gives a 1 year warranty for it, I felt pretty safe but there is always that question swirling around in my head - "what if", etc.

Also knowing that the macro lens is going to be what I have been looking for is definitely a plus. I did get that new. I definitely wasn't brave enough to try and find refurbished in a lens - yet. Maybe once I am comfortable with this acquisition, I'll be braver for the next time!

Anyway, thank you very much! I'll sleep better tonight! <grin>

[xpatUSA]

No matter what site I chose, after uploading a JPEG, I got the same answer - that the shutter count was not recorded in the metadata (or something to that wording). I downloaded an ExifTool and ran it and got the same results - no shutter count. Searching the web, it "appears" that Canon doesn't have this info available - at least not for my Rebel t3i. I give up! I can hope that the 7D Mark II cooperates a bit better about this info.

Sandy, I have a copy of the Standard for EXIF 2.2. I searched in it for "shutter" but nowhere did "ShutterCount" appear. So, Dan might be referring to "Maker Notes" a free-form subdivision of EXIF; on that basis, there is no reason why the 7D Mk II would be any better than any prior model.

People sometimes think that "EXIF" means that every defined EXIF 2.2 tag will be included in, for example, a JPEG out-of-camera - BUT just how many tags will be included is up to the camera manufacturer and, worse, any editor that you use makes up it's own mind as to what to include or not when exporting.

As to "meta-data" - that is not just EXIF but can be much, much more. With my own cameras meta-data is mostly parameter values sent to the raw converter for the best possible conversion, none of which parameters are listed in the EXIF standard, indeed why should they be?

Non-proprietary converters struggle because such meta-data is often obfuscated by unintelligible tag header text.

[ladylibertyny]

Hello. I recently resolved this same dilemma for myself. My first DSLR with interchangeable lenses was a crop sensor Nikon D70S. From there I went to another crop sensor the Nikon D7100. A few days ago I purchased my first full frame DSLR, a Nikon D810. Yes, it is a bit weighty especially with the Sigma 24-70mm f2.8 art lens attached. I felt this was a good choice for me as the Nikon D750 in my opinion is somewhat the same as the D7100 except it is a full frame, not a crop sensor as the D7100 is.
It all comes down to personal preference...what you are shooting...your equipment budget, etc. No, it was not an easy decision. With all the holiday sales going on and free items included, it is a good time to be purchasing camera gear...in my opinion.
As for your concern regarding condensation in cold weather. I live in Alaska and do ice sculpture photography. Prior to coming back into the warm house, my camera is placed in a plastic bag and tightly closed. This prevents condensation from forming on the camera and lens. There are several sites that sell camera jackets but be sure to check their temperature ratings....most are not rated for the Alaska cold.
Good luck with your decision. I will look back on this forum for updates.