Lust...

[Tronhard]

So I was the chauffeur for partner and daughter going to do some power shopping for women's clothing. Not a good experience for me as I get abused when I express an opinion about what they are trying on. So I went off on my own and came across two Teslas on display in the mall - A model X and a Model S.

Electric cars are starting to make inroads in NZ, thanks to high petrol prices and efforts by the government to encourage uptake - such as no road taxes until at least 2022, and free charging in many places around NZ. We have bought a Nissan Leaf and after driving just over 3,500km have spent precisely $8.50 in energy charges. We also get free parking in a few downtown spots!

Looking at the display I was struck by several things: the gorgeous lines of the vehicles, the large number of people taking interest them and the shock of people when they were told how much they would have to fork out for a Tesla! That said, while I was charging my Leaf in the parkade there were several Teslas sharing the charging area, so people are buying them.

The guys showing the cars were so busy they didn't have time to fix the skewed sign which ran against an otherwise immaculate look.



Taken with a Canon EOS M, using a EF-M11-22mm zoom, hand held while awkwardly squatting!

[Shadowman]

You should try a bit of reverse psychology next time you're roped into an excursion. Nice shot.

[pnodrog]

The few Tesla cars I have peered into have all been beautifully detailed. The Leaf is obviously proving very economic.

Nice angle and no obvious sign of lurching...

[LePetomane]

The Tesla is a beautiful car but not practical for me where I live.

[Tronhard]

I was really impressed with the Tesla X-series... in the background of this photo. It retains a sporty look, but has two trunks (boots if you will) and three rows of seats to offer a capacity of 7 and it has gull-wing doors. Only problem is the price is astronomical for me, but I can dream, can't I...

[JBW]

I was really impressed with the Tesla X-series... in the background of this photo. It retains a sporty look, but has two trunks (boots if you will) and three rows of seats to offer a capacity of 7 and it has gull-wing doors. Only problem is the price is astronomical for me, but I can dream, can't I...

absolutely

[DanK]

Well, if you like the idea of a cross-over vehicle designed so that you can't carry anything on the roof. I don't know where I would put my kayaks, for example. When the model X came out, it seemed to me that it was too clever by half.

Electric cars and plug-in hybrids are finally becoming more common here, but of course it's the more reasonably priced ones that account for much of the volume. One of our cars is a plug-in Prius Prime--smaller by far than a Tesla S and nowhere nearly as eye-catching, but cheap and reliable. It gets only 40 km in the winter and perhaps 50 km in the summer before it switches from pure electric mode to hybrid mode, but we found that for driving around town, that range encompasses almost all our driving. We charge it at work during the day or at home overnight. And when it does switch to hybrid mode, it gets 50 mpg (21 km/l). As a result, we actually have to plan to run down the battery and use hybrid mode enough to consume roughly 1 gallon /month (~ 4 liters) so that we can switch fuel twice a year when the vendors switch to and from summer gas. The only disappointment is that the solar panels we were able to fit on our roof a few years ago were roughly sufficient to produce our annual consumption of power, with enough surplus to pay our connection fee, before we bought the car. Now we probably will end up paying for electricity once in a while--a trivial amount, but on principle, I liked not consuming more than I produced.

In this area, charging policy is a local matter. Some towns have free chargers, while others require that you pay the commercial firm that owns them for the power. Charging is free in my town, but the car is so efficient when running in electric mode that I'd have to do the arithmetic to see whether free electricity offsets the trivial cost of the parking meter. I'm not sure it does.

BTW, electric power doesn't come out of nowhere, so if environmental issues are a concern for you, it's worth considering where commercial power is generated and how much you consume. According to the EPA estimates, the power consumption of our car in electric mode is equivalent to 133 miles per gallon (67 km/l), so there is clear environmental benefit even if one doesn't consider urban air quality, and in our area, there are no coal-fired electrical plants.

Not that this has anything to do with photography, but it's interesting (to me, anyway) nonetheless.

[lovelife65]

Nice photo although I’m just not into Tesla’s and their style. Once they solve the problems with the toxic batteries, low range, and the fact you still gotta plug them into ... well a fossil fuel source, maybe they will become more mainstream. For now, I’ll just keep das auto as long as possible since it seems the manufacture of cars is a good chunk of the lifetime pollution generation

I do think they are feasible in urban environments but not necessarily sprawling rural and suburban areas. I think we got a long way to go before they make sense in mass quantities here in much of the states. Mass transit still makes more sense in many urban areas even. And they tell us autonomous cars are coming soon anyhow.

Sorry if my reply seems poopy. Not intended.

[Tronhard]

Hey Sharon!

According to the owners I have spoken to, Teslas have a range of around 600km, which I think is fairly comparable to most gas tanks. As to the source of energy, I think that depends on where and how the energy is sourced. For NZ we are lucky in that 87% of our total energy capacity is sourced from renewal resources, and that 13% of fossil fuel resources is enacted only under extreme stress. The range anxiety you refer to certainly applied to the Nissan leaf, and several other brands that were designed for the urban environment. The series 1 had a range of only 120km. The series 2 that I drive has a range of 201km and the latest series 3 will have a range of over 400km, so things on the battery front are improving fast. I have made trips of 400km out of Auckland with no problem getting free charging. As to the materials used, batteries contain a lot of valuable materials and they are recycled by the manufacturers who offer a rebate on new batteries. For example the leafs can update their batteries to the series 3 for about $4k. By the way a battery will work for between 10-15 years before it should be replaced so no-one has really had to do an upgrade yet.

The great news over here in NZ is that the government is injecting tens of millions into building an electric charging infrastructure with the aim of getting tourists to travel the whole of NZ by electric vehicle -
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11976650

some tourist companies are already trialing electric camper vans.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/896...urism-holdings

NZ imports every drop of oil and petrol so we are uniquely placed to benefit from going electric. In quite a few regions the charging is free for the next few years and there are no road taxes for electric vehicles until at least 2022. So there are many benefits to being an early adopter. With only 20 moving parts (compared to 2,000 parts and explosions in an I.C.E.) the main costs will be breaks, tyres and windscreen wipers! So far I have driven 3,500km at total cost of $8.50. I love electric cars!!!

[Tronhard]

Well, if you like the idea of a cross-over vehicle designed so that you can't carry anything on the roof. I don't know where I would put my kayaks, for example. When the model X came out, it seemed to me that it was too clever by half.

Hi Dan

I never expect to own a Tesla - I have better things to do with my money - like buying cameras and travelling! Obviously the series X is not for everyone. But in a discussion with one owner he explained that for getting lots of people out of the 3 rows of seats it is brilliant. The door does not impede movement, and as the hinge point for the doors is almost at the centre of the car (as opposed to a conventional door hinged at the side) the door swings out of the way without using anywhere near the space required normally, which is great in a confined parking space.

I suspect you might have more sympathy for the model 3, one of which I saw here recently. It is a much more conventional style of body and you could certainly put a rack on to take your kayaks. It is also WAY cheaper than the models X or S!

As regard energy sourcing, or course that is an issue if your electricity is from fossil fuel sources. See my response to Sharon above for why that is really good for us in NZ!

[lovelife65]

Hey Sharon!

According to the owners I have spoken to, Teslas have a range of around 600km, which I think is fairly comparable to most gas tanks. As to the source of energy, I think that depends on where and how the energy is sourced. For NZ we are lucky in that 87% of our total energy capacity is sourced from renewal resources, and that 13% of fossil fuel resources is enacted only under extreme stress. The range anxiety you refer to certainly applied to the Nissan leaf, and several other brands that were designed for the urban environment. The series 1 had a range of only 120km. The series 2 that I drive has a range of 201km and the latest series 3 will have a range of over 400km, so things on the battery front are improving fast. I have made trips of 400km out of Auckland with no problem getting free charging. As to the materials used, batteries contain a lot of valuable materials and they are recycled by the manufacturers who offer a rebate on new batteries. For example the leafs can update their batteries to the series 3 for about $4k. By the way a battery will work for between 10-15 years before it should be replaced so no-one has really had to do an upgrade yet.

The great news over here in NZ is that the government is injecting tens of millions into building an electric charging infrastructure with the aim of getting tourists to travel the whole of NZ by electric vehicle - some tourist companies are already trialing electric camper vans. NZ imports every drop of oil and petrol so we are uniquely placed to benefit from gong electric. In quite a few regions the charging is free for the next few years and there are no road taxes for electric vehicles until at least 2022. So there are many benefits to being an early adopter. With only 20 moving parts (compared to 2,000 parts and explosions in an I.C.E.) the main costs will be breaks, tyres and windscreen wipers! So far I have driven 3,500km at total cost of $8.50. I love electric cars!!!

I understand and thanks for your thoughts.. Well, that $8.50 in cost is not accurate tho....since you indicate you charge at "free" charging stations ... well, SOMEONE is paying for that

Also, one can build all the charging stations on the planet, but if the underlying grid infrastructure isn't upgraded (at least here in the US), then there are going to be big problems. Already, with increasing heat waves, the grids in many cities are overstressed. Imagine millions of cars plugged into that. Not Rolling brown/blackouts but full blown shutdown.

(this is meant to be a fun debate BTW).

[Tronhard]

The free charging for me is the result of 2 things. An investment by our government in getting people out of gas guzzling and polluting cars and the fact that quite often we have surplus energy which is essentially free, especially as we have a divergence of sources including hydro, wind, solar and tidal. A lot of people charge their cars at home at night, as we live in an apartment we can't do that. A full charge in the overnight charge situation costs perhaps $3 as it is off peak. Unlike the USA our infrastructure is newer and smaller. The biggest drain on NZ's energy comes from an aluminium smelter that is going out of business soon so we will have even more surplus energy. As I understand it the US has a much older and less maintained infrastructure so it leaks significant amounts of energy. This is a big issue along with other aging and overwhelmed infrastructure over there. The NZ govt has a significant share in our energy reticulation industry and it has made sure that it has not let maintenance fall.

Sharon my point is that NZ is VERY different from the USA, and like countries such as Norway, Sweden and Iceland have both the natural resources and economic incentives to make it work for us. The USA is a whole different thing, but with fuel being a finite and polluting resource it will, at some stage, have to deal with it.

If you can read this at all I will be impressed. I am writing on my cell without glasses! 😊

[xpatUSA]

Well, that $8.50 [for 3,500km] in cost is not accurate tho....since you indicate you charge at "free" charging stations ... well, SOMEONE is paying for that

Also, one can build all the charging stations on the planet, but if the underlying grid infrastructure isn't upgraded (at least here in the US), then there are going to be big problems. Already, with increasing heat waves, the grids in many cities are overstressed. Imagine millions of cars plugged into that. Not Rolling brown/blackouts but full blown shutdown.

Yes, I've visited coal-fired power stations while working for a Houston energy company.

As people plug in their electric/hybrid wonders down in oh-so-clean Californy, they don't see the extra sulfur- and other nasty compounds going up Northern stacks (where the coal is) and heading off to the Eastern States and thence to Europe and Scandinavia.

P.S. Then I think of an oil-fired power station consuming oil at such and such rate and delivering Watts to the grid at such and such a rate. Said Watts traveling some distance to the Customer, losing power in the form of heat while on their way. Then someone plugs in their vehicle to charge the battery - anybody know the efficiency of of that little transaction? And finally, what is the efficiency of battery current-to-road traction, I wonder? Compared to pouring Diesel into the Jeep and driving to town at about 18-20% efficiency?

P.P.S As can be expected, the subject is by no means as simple as some think:

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a..._power_sources

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a..._li_ion_to_die

[Tronhard]

Ted, as I have just explained your situation is different from NZ's but sooner or later your country, like all countries will have to deal with the issue of increasing pollution and reducing fossil fuel resources. There is no debate in the scientific community about this but politics, greed, self-interest and ignorance are complicating the issue.

You ask some good questions about energy efficiency, the NZ government has that information on its websites and I can give you a link when I get home. Two numbers did stick in my mind however: an internal combustion engine and drive train works on controlled explosions and has around 2,000 moving parts. An EV has 20 and no explosions. The Nissan Leaf is the most reliable vehicle in NZ according to the motor vehicle industry. In NZ where gas alone is over $2.00 per litre the equivalent cost for an EV is less than 30c per litre.

I agree that generating electricity from oil and coal is a bad idea, but many energy companies are making the switch and last year they recorded more investment in clean energy than the other - that according to Federal agency records and their own annual reports.

[DanK]

Actually, Ted, those have all been analyzed. For example, you can find an old and rather cursory report here: https://saxton.org/EV/efficiency.php

Clearly, coal-generated power partially undermines the value of electric cars, but fortunately, there is less and less of it in the developed world. If I am not mistaken, we have none left in my area. Even in the backwards US, where renewables contribute far less than in many other developed countries, renewables are a rapidly growing share, and natural gas has been replacing coal at a rapid rate for years because it is much cheaper. [you posted this fact while I was writing. That's all the more reason to use an EV.]

hen someone plugs in their vehicle to charge the battery - anybody know the efficiency of of that little transaction? And finally, what is the efficiency of battery current-to-road traction, I wonder?

No secrets there. Re the first: you can find detailed discussions of the charging efficiency for specific electric cars on the web. Charging loss is added into the EPA's calculation of mpg-equivalence, if I am not mistaken. And the efficiency of the final step is high, which is one reason costs are so low. I don't have the exact figures now, but in round numbers, fully charging the EV-only portion of my battery requires something like 6.5 KWh our of the all, while the actual amount stored is something like 5.8 KWh. That costs me $0.72 when I buy electricity. Well, it will. I haven't paid for electricity in nearly 3 years, but I think I will have to buy a bit over the next few months. In warm weather, that $0.72 worth of electricity gets me somewhat over 30 miles; in a New England winter, perhaps 25. (EVs are of course much less efficient in cold weather.)

Finally, you're right that we need to take into account the financial and nonfinancial costs of producing any kind of energy. But if you are going to do that, you should consider the environmental and costs of producing your diesel or gasoline, which are huge.

[xpatUSA]

Ted, as I have just explained, your situation is different from NZ's but, sooner or later, your country, like all countries, will have to deal with the issue of increasing pollution and reducing fossil fuel resources. There is no debate in the scientific community about this but politics, greed, self-interest and ignorance are complicating the issue.

Currently, I'm not seeing the U.S. Government giving a toss about these matters. I just read today that U.S. Oil & Gas production is fixin' to exceed that of Saudi Arabia !!

I agree with your sentiment, though. Pardon my cynicism re: USA.

In NZ, where gas alone is over $2.00 per litre, the equivalent cost for an EV is less than 30c per litre.

Per liter?!! Those better be $NZ . . .

[Tronhard]

Hi Ted: Yep they are NZ $, although when you live in a country and earn dollars and spend them in the same currency, A $ is a $!

Here is the link I referred to:
https://www.electricvehicles.govt.nz...SAAEgLVAPD_BwE

[lovelife65]

Currently, I'm not seeing the U.S. Government giving a toss about these matters. I just read today that U.S. Oil & Gas production is fixin' to exceed that of Saudi Arabia !!

I agree with your sentiment, though. Pardon my cynicism re: USA.



Per liter?!! Those better be $NZ . . .

We are back to drill baby drill. They even wanna open up the Washington state coastline.
Technology has to come a long way for electric vehicles to take over. Maybe the whole concept of private vehicles for everyone is in itself something that should become obsolete. (And maybe it will)

[Tronhard]

A fellow engineer - a mechanical one (I'm civil and structure, and IT), made a great comment about the efficiency of electrical vehicles vs ICEs. Almost all of the waste of energy in the world is through loss as heat: we lose it from our bodies, our homes, our cookers etc. So look at the temperature of an ICE when it has taken a journey and then check out the temperature of an electrical vehicle. Sure they get warm but they are easily air cooled and so do not have all that stuff like radiators etc.

I did some searching on the relative efficiencies of electrical vs ICE powered vehicles:

According to Niels Albert, who works in EV Engineering & Business Development for Tesla.
"Well that depends. Sure they get hot, but there are enough methods to dissipate the heat. Most electric car motors are air cooled, but you can also use a liquid-cooled motor. With liquid cooling, temperature is never an issue. Remember that an electric motor has an efficiency of about 90%, so 10% of the energy you use is dissipated as heat. Say you need 90kW to drive your vehicle, then 10kW is heat. A petrol engine has an efficiency of about 30% - Some energy flows away trough the exhaust, but say 50% of the incoming energy is dissipated as heat. 90*0,3*0,5=150kW of heat to dissipate in the cooling system (That’s oil cooling, radiation from the engine and water cooling). 15 times more!"

[Tronhard]

Currently, I'm not seeing the U.S. Government giving a toss about these matters. I just read today that U.S. Oil & Gas production is fixin' to exceed that of Saudi Arabia

I believe that despite the political changes wreaked upon US Federal government policy, there is enough momentum in the private sector and in the states themselves to progress this in the US. I understand and appreciate that to turn a huge infrastructure around like that of the US is WAY harder than for little old NZ. Right now, as I understand it, there is a move to make the US self-sufficient for its oil needs, and given the situation in the middle east I can see why there is a concern. But even the US military is funding major projects to wean itself off oil because they understand that using readily available renewables such as solar, wind and waves gives them much more flexibility and security.