Lust...

[JBW]

We are back to drill baby drill. They even wanna open up the Washington state coastline.
Technology has to come a long way for electric vehicles to take over. Maybe the whole concept of private vehicles for everyone is in itself something that should become obsolete. (And maybe it will)

Indeed it should. The problem is that since the invention of the horseless carriage first western and then many other cultures built their economy and culture around people owning a private vehicle.

After Churchill decided to change the Royal Navy to oil rather coal every nations self-defense became dependent upon oil and vehicles that burnt gas or diesel.

Then as our population increased producing enough food to feed us all became dependent upon machinery. Machinery that runs on oil.

If we were to replace every private gas driven vehicle with an electric one we would notsolve the problem we would only delay the inevitable for a miniscule amount of time.

What is needed is to develop a world culture that is not dependent upon private vehicles and world wide access to everything.
Brian

[Tronhard]

I am SO glad I live in NZ and don't have to deal with the issues you have over there in North America. In that I include Canada that is struggling with the desire to reduce fossil fuels and pollution, with the reality that 20% of its income is from those same oils, and I believe that oil from tar sands is probably the dirtiest oil on the planet...

[lovelife65]

Indeed it should. The problem is that since the invention of the horseless carriage first western and then many other cultures built their economy and culture around people owning a private vehicle.

After Churchill decided to change the Royal Navy to oil rather coal every nations self-defense became dependent upon oil and vehicles that burnt gas or diesel.

Then as our population increased producing enough food to feed us all became dependent upon machinery. Machinery that runs on oil.

If we were to replace every private gas driven vehicle with an electric one we would notsolve the problem we would only delay the inevitable for a miniscule amount of time.

What is needed is to develop a world culture that is not dependent upon private vehicles and world wide access to everything.
Brian

Or Sir, you are so very spot on. Additionally, our development policies in general has exacerbated the problem even further. The suburban sprawl that started in the 50s and continues on. Too many people, too many people sold on the idea of a big house on a big lot with a 4 car garage 60 miles from work. I see the pressures here. What was once farmland is now the subdivision of "Trophy Ponds" for example. (Ugh, I could never live in a subdivision called Trophy Ponds... but I digress.... LOL)

Farmland, and food, that's another big discussion (including food waste, processed foods, corn for ethanol, industrial farming, etc. etc.). I feel lucky, we live in a smaller agricultural area (big seed supplier, fruits and veggies, tulips).

We have a lot of food choices that are local, yeah, I know that is a trendy movement but...

Delaying the inevitable is exactly it, which is why I view the electric vehicle movement as almost a ponzi scheme... it solves nothing.

[lovelife65]

I am SO glad I live in NZ and don't have to deal with the issues you have over there in North America. In that I include Canada that is struggling with the desire to reduce fossil fuels and pollution, with the reality that 20% of its income is from those same oils, and I believe that oil from tar sands is probably the dirtiest oil on the planet...

Fracking is absolutely horrible. There will be ghost towns once everything is sucked dry and everyone has gone elsewhere.

[Tronhard]

Sharon I really think you have this wrong and you're "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".

Our whole society, from the discovery and use of fire, has been built on the harnessing of energy. We have used wind for millennia to power our boats and through windmills to run machines and make our other material resources. So our use of and dependence on energy is not new and has a lot to do with why we have survived when really all we had going for us was our brains. However as we have sought a more comfortable and sophisticated lifestyle our use of energy has increased massively, especially since the start of the industrial revolution that is the basis for those things we take for granted today.

If you want ANY kind of lifestyle comparable to that which you enjoy in the US then you need energy, and lots of it. (The US uses the most energy per capita in the world). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ion_per_capita

Absolutely we have built our society up on a source that represented the technology of the times, but we are learning fast about the cost of that and we are finding solutions that will let us keep a decent lifestyle but not ruin our planet in the meantime and that should be supported. Generating clean energy through renewables is our best hope, and if we want to maintain our lifestyle that is based on the economies of scale that come from moving mass-produced goods, and being able to travel even moderate distances then we need transport. I agree that transport as a service is where we need to go, and it has to be through technologies such as electric vehicles, powered by renewables.

If you go back about 150 years (and even more recently in places like the UK) for people to journey more than a day or so's horse riding distance from their homes was rare. Goods were generally low tech and made locally through cottage industries and our lifespans were lower because we did not have the technologies to develop and deliver the drugs and care we have now. If someone you love is badly injured you will appreciate the ability of our technologies to get them to a medical facility and have all of the modern resources we now have to save them. If you give up on energy you lose all of that. One simply has to go to places in the world where energy is not freely available to see the alternative - the lose light with the sun and live in relative isolation. Personally I would really miss that fact that photography would be impossible, based on our use of high tech for the components and consumables we use!

I know this whole thing is distressing to you - you are a very caring individual. But do you think describing the genuine effort by scientists and technologists to deliver those things that we take for granted in a clean way as a "ponzi scheme" is not really doing them justice?

[Tronhard]

Fracking is absolutely horrible. There will be ghost towns once everything is sucked dry and everyone has gone elsewhere.

Couldn't agree with you more about fracking!

[JBW]

I am SO glad I live in NZ and don't have to deal with the issues you have over there in North America. In that I include Canada that is struggling with the desire to reduce fossil fuels and pollution, with the reality that 20% of its income is from those same oils, and I believe that oil from tar sands is probably the dirtiest oil on the planet...

the dirtiest carbon based fuel.

[Tronhard]

I had to take "she who must be obeyed" to work this morning and pick her up later. Luckily the museum is close at hand, but parking is always very difficult to get and often expensive... except if you have an EV. There are two parking stalls right by the entrance and the energy (supplied by solar panels on the roof) is free. I get to expand my horizons while I charge my car at no charge!

[Tronhard]

After Churchill decided to change the Royal Navy to oil rather coal every nations self-defense became dependent upon oil and vehicles that burnt gas or diesel.
Brian

I have to offer a small digression... My father was an officer cadet in the Royal Navy in the 1930's. Even then coal was seen as a strategic material and he had to go and learn all about its production. When his ship docked for a period in Wales he inevitably had to go into a colliery to write a paper for his supervisor. Coming back to the ship he met one of the other officers who told him to take back his golf clubs while the officer went on to another engagement. At the gangplank my dad met the officer of the day, who said " Well, young Hardy, been playing golf have you?" to which my father naively replied "No sir I've been down a coal mine!" He was looking at a charge of insubordination until he was able to prove his point!

[xpatUSA]

I had to take "she who must be obeyed" to work this morning and pick her up later. Luckily the museum is close at hand, but parking is always very difficult to get and often expensive... except if you have an EV. There are two parking stalls right by the entrance and the energy (supplied by solar panels on the roof) is free. I get to expand my horizons while I charge my car at no charge!

Please tell us that isn't yours with the cute license plate ...

In the USA which still has some undeveloped land left, there is a movement to build "off the grid" houses - and, up there in Alaska, people are still living off the land in real log cabins. SWMBO and I both enjoy documents about that . . while cranking up the TV volume to cope with the roar from the A/C.

I'm having difficulty envisaging a museum parking lot being so popular! Over here, it would be both large . . . . . . and virtually empty.

[Tronhard]

Please tell us that isn't yours with the cute license plate ...

In the USA which still has some undeveloped land left, there is a movement to build "off the grid" houses - and, up there in Alaska, people are still living off the land in real log cabins. SWMBO and I both enjoy documents about that . . while cranking up the TV volume to cope with the roar from the A/C.

Weeeellll... I can neither confirm nor deny the association with the aforementioned license plate. All I will say is that we can't afford a $120k Tesla X and we have named all of our cars and the last two were a Diahatsu named "Daffy" and then a Hyundai Tuscani called "Bruce" after the shark in the film "Finding Nemo". We did so quite unaware that the cheaper version of the Tuscani, the Tuberon is Spanish for shark, and the mechanical shark used to film the movie Jaws was also called Bruce... go figure.

[Tronhard]

I'm having difficulty envisaging a museum parking lot being so popular! Over here, it would be both large . . . . . . and virtually empty.

The Auckland War Memorial Museum is actually a very popular spot, especially on a rainy day like this one has been.
http://www.aucklandmuseum.com/

It has been hosting the photos from the International Wildlife Photographer of the Year competition and currently has the NZ Geographic Photographer of the year entrants.
https://www.nzgeo.com/photography/photographer-of-the-year-2017/
https://www.nzgeo.com/photography/photocomp/

So I spent some time in that, and in the excellent cafe built into the facility...

[lovelife65]

Trev your enthusiasm is admirable
Sorry for party pooping on your post.... a great photograph and overall fun debate.

[Tronhard]

Trev your enthusiasm is admirable
Sorry for party pooping on your post.... a great photograph and overall fun debate.

Hey Sharon, you know I'm a fan! Were I in the USA and caring about the environment as we both do, I would have a major sense of frustration too.

This hot off the press from our local paper website
http://www.driven.co.nz/news/news/ni...-energy-bills/

Bring it on!!

[lovelife65]

Hey Sharon, you know I'm a fan! Were I in the USA and caring about the environment as we both do, I would have a major sense of frustration too.

This hot off the press from our local paper website
http://www.driven.co.nz/news/news/ni...-energy-bills/

Bring it on!!

Ditto.
A battery isn't going to slash. Every home, well new home, should be required to have solar. We do. We put more back into the system than we use.... In Washington State!!!

The other issue that is never addressed because it's touchy.... TOO.MANY.PEOPLE. Is everyone in China and India going to drive electric cars? Approaching 7 billion people on earth. There is no solution with that glaring statistic. And we keep striving for life extension. Growing organs, etc. etc. I'll bow out when "it's my time" thank you.