Invisible

[lovelife65]

Vancouver, BC shoppers

XPro-2 Acros Mode.

[Tronhard]

Sharon: I really like the idea, but if the theme of the photo was to emphasize that the person sitting was invisible to the passers by, I would have focused on him and maybe blurred out the others with a shallow DoF. Now, I admit the image is not clear at the size I am viewing, but I get the impression that the plane of focus is actually somewhere around the door handles on the left - am I wrong in this?

[Shadowman]

Small but nice.

[lovelife65]

Thanks for commenting I think clicking on it makes it slightly bigger.
That’s the only size I seemed to be able to attach.
The idea in the photo was that he of course was very noticeable but nobody looked at him.
Very common it makes people uncomfortable so really he is invisible.
I don’t give money usually but I will look and say something.

[kristent]

Don't mean to be political here,but....I bet each of us could create a similar good shot (NO disrespect, LoveLife65) - wouldn't it be interesting to gather them all up and present this seemingly Universal problem in some very large way? just thinking out loud...

[Stagecoach]

The idea in the photo was that he of course was very noticeable but nobody looked at him.
Very common it makes people uncomfortable so really he is invisible.
I don’t give money usually but I will look and say something.

For me Sharon the image portrays nothing other than a street beggar, a sight unfortunately very common in many busy town centres.

The large area of uninteresting doors suggests a shot taken in haste just to grab another of this subject.

You are correct that he is noticeable and nobody is looking at him in 'this' shot but to consider these guys are "invisible" due to people being uncomfortable is a rather misguided assumption.

[lovelife65]

For me Sharon the image portrays nothing other than a street beggar, a sight unfortunately very common in many busy town centres.

The large area of uninteresting doors suggests a shot taken in haste just to grab another of this subject.

You are correct that he is noticeable and nobody is looking at him in 'this' shot but to consider these guys are "invisible" due to people being uncomfortable is a rather misguided assumption.

Certainly a crop of the doors could be suggested. Actually I had been standing there for quite some time, but eh...
I think it all depends on whether that is misguided or not.... where one lives and how they see.

Thanks for the comments

[lovelife65]

Don't mean to be political here,but....I bet each of us could create a similar good shot (NO disrespect, LoveLife65) - wouldn't it be interesting to gather them all up and present this seemingly Universal problem in some very large way? just thinking out loud...

Nothing political nor disrespect taken .... Sure, it could certainly be presented that way, and it often is... magazines, etc. dedicated to the issue of homelessness probably already do it.

[Tronhard]

For me Sharon the image portrays nothing other than a street beggar, a sight unfortunately very common in many busy town centres.

The large area of uninteresting doors suggests a shot taken in haste just to grab another of this subject.

You are correct that he is noticeable and nobody is looking at him in 'this' shot but to consider these guys are "invisible" due to people being uncomfortable is a rather misguided assumption.

I actually think that, while the shot was possibly taken in haste, the inclusion of the doors serves to put space around the individual - while he is the subject he is reduced in this space, and it works for me.

Suggesting that people ignore someone begging on the street (I read the sign) is not at all "misguided" or necessarily an assumption, and she was there and you weren't. If you had ever walked around the streets of Vancouver or Victoria BC, (I lived there for quite a few years) and saw the population continuously accosted by panhandlers asking for a hand out you would quickly recognize both the situation and the reaction of the people. Canadians are not overtly rude, so their best defense in such matters is to simply seem to have missed seeing or hearing these individuals.

The west coast of Canada is the most temperate part of the country and it attracts those who live on the streets because they are less likely to suffer the privations of the cold. This migration is a thorn in the sides of municipalities and other bodies, especially the police, as they have to deal with people who are not only unemployed and homeless but often suffer from mental conditions and addictions. The police commissioner complained that while trying to do their job, over 70% of call-outs were to deal with vagrants and they did not have either the facilities or training to deal with people who were not, by intent, criminals - taking them from their primary task of preventing and resolving crimes.

[Stagecoach]

I actually think that, while the shot was possibly taken in haste, the inclusion of the doors serves to put space around the individual - while he is the subject he is reduced in this space, and it works for me.

Whilst there is nothing wrong with having space around a subject or in a scene in this particular case the content of the space does not work for me at all. That opinion neither makes it right or wrong it's simply that we all have different ways of viewing an image and its entire content.

Suggesting that people ignore someone begging on the street (I read the sign) is not at all "misguided" or necessarily an assumption, and she was there and you weren't.

It's a misguided assumption as I said when referred to this comment "it makes people uncomfortable so really he is invisible" as many people do not feel uncomfortable when they pass them, just annoyed at the space they take up, or simply take no notice whatsoever of such a common sight.

[Tronhard]

It's a misguided assumption as I said when referred to this comment "it makes people uncomfortable so really he is invisible" as many people do not feel uncomfortable when they pass them, just annoyed at the space they take up, or simply take no notice whatsoever of such a common sight.

And your evidential research on this is based on?

[lovelife65]

Nice perspective Trev. Thanks for your thoughts. Many of these individuals just sit and stare into the ground as this guy is doing. So much mental illness and or substance abuse. I lived in the Bay Area of California for 15 years and Canada has nothin on that region.
Interesting enough mental health isn’t addressed very well in this country. Not only from street people but also in violence plagued cities. Violence escalated further in Chicago when Rham closed a bunch of mental health facilities. People in some of the worse neighborhoods have tried to tax themselves higher to try to open up private facilities.
The warmer west coast nations struggle because yes more people flock there for the climate break, but they are Also very expensive. Hard luck there. Yes these people do indeed become ignored because people get worn out from seeing it. There often is no hope to ever fix it.

In terms of taken in haste, well ya I certainly didn’t stand there with my camera up to my face adjusting settings, thinking of framing , exposure and composition, etc.
Yes it’s not the most interesting subject of “street” type photos but sometimes it can work. It’s all a learning process and I find this particular genre very interesting but also really hard.
Certainly there is sameness in many photos taken today. That’s the name of the game when there are millions posted to social media daily.

Cheers

P.s Canadians rock. They are a very kind and friendly lot.

I actually think that, while the shot was possibly taken in haste, the inclusion of the doors serves to put space around the individual - while he is the subject he is reduced in this space, and it works for me.

Suggesting that people ignore someone begging on the street (I read the sign) is not at all "misguided" or necessarily an assumption, and she was there and you weren't. If you had ever walked around the streets of Vancouver or Victoria BC, (I lived there for quite a few years) and saw the population continuously accosted by panhandlers asking for a hand out you would quickly recognize both the situation and the reaction of the people. Canadians are not overtly rude, so their best defense in such matters is to simply seem to have missed seeing or hearing these individuals.

The west coast of Canada is the most temperate part of the country and it attracts those who live on the streets because they are less likely to suffer the privations of the cold. This migration is a thorn in the sides of municipalities and other bodies, especially the police, as they have to deal with people who are not only unemployed and homeless but often suffer from mental conditions and addictions. The police commissioner complained that while trying to do their job, over 70% of call-outs were to deal with vagrants and they did not have either the facilities or training to deal with people who were not, by intent, criminals - taking them from their primary task of preventing and resolving crimes.

[Stagecoach]

And your evidential research on this is based on?

Talking to people, not assumptions on how one believes another may be thinking or feeling.

[lovelife65]

And your evidential research on this is based on?

I do believe, for many many people, passing a homeless person sitting on the sidewalk, especially those that seem quite ill either physically or mentally, is very uncomfortable. But I may be projecting because I can attest to not enjoying it. The Bay Area did not soften that, even when seeing hundreds of them daily.
This particular soul probably did feel pretty invisible.

[lovelife65]

Talking to people, not assumptions on how one believes another may be thinking or feeling.

So you talk to lots of people about homeless people and their thoughts on seeing them? Is it a big problem in Fiji?

[lovelife65]

Oh my 45 percent of people in Fiji live below the poverty line. That’s pretty ugly.

[Tronhard]

Talking to people, not assumptions on how one believes another may be thinking or feeling.

I would dispute that. You live in Fiji, not a city like Vancouver. So have you had discourse on this subject from people who would have experienced this environment? Your assumption was made about these people without being in their social space... surely you see the flaw in that logic? So let's look at the thing at the photo and the academic context for what we are seeing...

If you look at the expressions of the people in this image they are not making eye contact with the seated individual, they are fixed ahead, especially the fellow who is approaching the seated individual, who is himself disengaged from looking at the people passing by. They do not look angry to me.

This has a lot to with how we associate with large populations and social dysfunction, especially in our modern society. People have a social "pool" of relationships maximized between 150-200 people, the size of a village before we developed industrial agriculture to a point of surplus to support skills specializations and hence larger-sized communities, and that is very ancient. In such societies we knew the people around us: we might love them, like them, dislike them or hate them, but we knew them well enough to recognize and have a social connection with them. Studies indicate that in large cities we do not increase that pool, yet we are surrounded by individuals and groups we cannot relate to. A parallel would be to be stranded in the Antarctic without a heat source - surrounded by water that we cannot access, it is the largest desert in the world.

We establish "villages" from people we may work with, travel regularly with or share interests with. The needs to establish valid relationships are expressed in devices such as matchmaking companies or dating apps. The result is that we isolate ourselves from those who surround us and with whom we cannot relate - we may have read the paper or a book in simpler times, now the desire to isolate ourselves from unwanted social or physical contact is one reason for the popularity of such devices as iPods, and cell phones that allow us to focus our attention on a device and not those around them. This is challenge for people making relationships in our times. If you have a mind to I would recommend reading Professor Dunbar's work on the Dunbar number and its impact on social interactions. There are also several other academic works on this, including ones specific to Canada.

The challenge for "unconventional populations", is exacerbated for those people who don't fit into our definition of "normal" and that makes them extremely hard for the general population to engage with, so the easiest solution of the public (based on a behavioural standard normal curve) is to "blank them", as I said, appearing to not sense them or their appeals for assistance. They often cannot make a connection themselves (as shown by the posture of the beggar). There is not normally anger - that would involve greater awareness and emotional investment that would be very stressful on a frequent basis: westerners visiting other societies where personal space is much less and where overt and persistent begging is common often express discomfort and stress at that. Essentially the mass population simply seek to be emotionally comfortable according to their environmental norm.

So I take you back to this photo... Do the passers by look angry? I cannot see that, so it far more likely that they are, in fact, doing what most people do - making this individual as invisible as possible.

[lovelife65]

Wow, what fantastic commentary in regards to humanity. I could reply to much of this, but I think he forum would be quite annoyed. Lol.
Great stuff here tho Trev. And so sadly accurate.

I would dispute that. You live in Fiji, not a city like Vancouver. So have you had discourse on this subject from people who would have experienced this environment? Your assumption was made about these people without being in their social space... surely you see the flaw in that logic? So let's look at the thing at the photo and the academic context for what we are seeing...

If you look at the expressions of the people in this image they are not making eye contact with the seated individual, they are fixed ahead, especially the fellow who is approaching the seated individual, who is himself disengaged from looking at the people passing by. They do not look angry to me.

This has a lot to with how we associate with large populations and social dysfunction, especially in our modern society. People have a social "pool" of relationships maximized between 150-200 people, the size of a village before we developed industrial agriculture to a point of surplus to support skills specializations and hence larger-sized communities, and that is very ancient. In such societies we knew the people around us: we might love them, like them, dislike them or hate them, but we knew them well enough to recognize and have a social connection with them. Studies indicate that in large cities we do not increase that pool, yet we are surrounded by individuals and groups we cannot relate to. A parallel would be to be stranded in the Antarctic without a heat source - surrounded by water that we cannot access, it is the largest desert in the world.

We establish "villages" from people we may work with, travel regularly with or share interests with. The needs to establish valid relationships are expressed in devices such as matchmaking companies or dating apps. The result is that we isolate ourselves from those who surround us and with whom we cannot relate - we may have read the paper or a book in simpler times, now the desire to isolate ourselves from unwanted social or physical contact is one reason for the popularity of such devices as iPods, and cell phones that allow us to focus our attention on a device and not those around them. This is challenge for people making relationships in our times. If you have a mind to I would recommend reading Professor Dunbar's work on the Dunbar number and its impact on social interactions. There are also several other academic works on this, including ones specific to Canada.

The challenge for "unconventional populations", is exacerbated for those people who don't fit into our definition of "normal" and that makes them extremely hard for the general population to engage with, so the easiest solution of the public (based on a behavioural standard normal curve) is to "blank them", as I said, appearing to not sense them or their appeals for assistance. They often cannot make a connection themselves (as shown by the posture of the beggar). There is not normally anger - that would involve greater awareness and emotional investment that would be very stressful on a frequent basis: westerners visiting other societies where personal space is much less and where overt and persistent begging is common often express discomfort and stress at that. Essentially the mass population simply seek to be emotionally comfortable according to their environmental norm.

So I take you back to this photo... Do the passers by look angry? I cannot see that, so it far more likely that they are, in fact, doing what most people do - making this individual as invisible as possible.

[Tronhard]

Wow, what fantastic commentary in regards to humanity. I could reply to much of this, but I think he forum would be quite annoyed. Lol.
Great stuff here tho Trev. And so sadly accurate.

Enough said, I agree. I hope your reply would be accepting! Leaving aside some technical issues, I think it was a valid image, keep up your street photography journey...

[Stagecoach]

So you talk to lots of people about homeless people and their thoughts on seeing them? Is it a big problem in Fiji?

Yes, the subject of begging on streets has been a regular topic discussed with acquaintances I have in the various countries and locations I've frequented over the years. Begging and homeless as a social concern here in my view is no different to some other countries I am familiar with.

Oh my 45 percent of people in Fiji live below the poverty line. That’s pretty ugly.

Statistics are wonderful things, there's even some around that rate Fiji top of a world country poll on happiness.