Should I purchase an external flash for an indoor shooting job?

[SergeTheBlerge]

I was asked to do a freelance job for a church confirmation Mass, an indoor church that's fairly lit, not bright but not too dark. This is actually my first ever offer and was wondering if a cheaper flash would be useful for such a job. The woman basically wants frontal shots of the kids as they come up to the alter as well as a group shot. I found this flash on Amazon and despite being affordable it comes with a hot shoe.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B010XCEABO...detail_2?psc=1

It looks decent enough and I would prefer not to use the flash installed with the camera as I feel it may come off as too bright. At the very least this external would give me enough light to where I don't have to turn the ISO up so high to make up for the indoor lighting. Any tips? The job seems simple enough but I'd like to do as good a job as I can. Thanks all.

[Manfred M]

If you have never shot flash, this is probably not the time to learn how to use it (unless you have someone who can mentor you through working with flash).

The reason the unit you are looking at is so inexpensive is that it is purely a manual flash - no integration with the camera electronics and I suspect not even the old fashioned thyristor automation. This means you will have to determine the settings manually either by calculating the appropriate exposure or by trial and error. Every time you change the subject to flash distance, you are going to have to manually compensate by adjusting the power output of the flash.

Secondly, direct (camera mounted) flash in this type of shot is definitely not desirable as the light will be hard and flat. Church ceilings are often too high and the wrong colour to use "bounce light", so the best alternative would probably be off camera flash using an umbrella and a light stand. In fact, I would probably use two, one as the main light and one as the fill light, as that combination would work well for the type of shots you are planning to take, but then I'm someone who shoots flash a lot.

I would encourage you to learn how to use flash, but not for this job. I would also suggest you look at a more reputable brand like your camera manufacturer. Third party manufacturers like Godox, Yongnuo, Nissin and Metz are all reliable and well built; I would not touch the stuff that Neweer and Cowboy Studios put out, just because of reported reliability issues.

[SergeTheBlerge]

If you have never shot flash, this is probably not the time to learn how to use it (unless you have someone who can mentor you through working with flash).

The reason the unit you are looking at is so inexpensive is that it is purely a manual flash - no integration with the camera electronics and I suspect not even the old fashioned thyristor automation. This means you will have to determine the settings manually either by calculating the appropriate exposure or by trial and error. Every time you change the subject to flash distance, you are going to have to manually compensate by adjusting the power output of the flash.

Secondly, direct (camera mounted) flash in this type of shot is definitely not desirable as the light will be hard and flat. Church ceilings are often too high and the wrong colour to use "bounce light", so the best alternative would probably be off camera flash using an umbrella and a light stand. In fact, I would probably use two, one as the main light and one as the fill light, as that combination would work well for the type of shots you are planning to take, but then I'm someone who shoots flash a lot.

I would encourage you to learn how to use flash, but not for this job. I would also suggest you look at a more reputable brand like your camera manufacturer. Third party manufacturers like Godox, Yongnuo, Nissin and Metz are all reliable and well built; I would not touch the stuff that Neweer and Cowboy Studios put out, just because of reported reliability issues.

Very good to know! I have a 1.8 lens so at least I can perhaps set it to about 2.8 or 3 to let in more light, as opposed to just using my standard 3.5 lens. I had a feeling there was probably no direct camera communication as opposed to the more expensive brands. I'd definitely have to invest in a better flash if jobs like these become somewhat regular. Thanks!

[Manfred M]

I suspect that you will want to shoot at a smaller aperture than f1.8; more like f/8 to give you a reasonable depth of field. For this type of work I usually shoot at f/8 or f/11, which is why I use flash.

[SergeTheBlerge]

I suspect that you will want to shoot at a smaller aperture than f1.8; more like f/8 to give you a reasonable depth of field. For this type of work I usually shoot at f/8 or f/11, which is why I use flash.

I could, it depends on the type of shots the director is looking for. If she wants close up portrait styles with a dramatic background I could better do that with a wider aperture. I may just end up using my standard 18-55mm lens in the end. Thanks

[Geoff F]

Can you do a few test shots beforehand to see how much you can increase your Iso setting without getting excessive noise problems. I would suspect that Iso 800 should be OK but I would start to get nervous beyond 1200. However, a slight shadow noise issue can be improved with careful editing and would be preferable to having motion blur due to a long shutter speed.

[Tronhard]

Rather than buy a cheap flash have you considered renting a good one with plenty of features and power?

[SergeTheBlerge]

Rather than buy a cheap flash have you considered renting a good one with plenty of features and power?

I COULD, but as of now I wouldn't consider myself a professional or working photographer. I'm basically just doing hobby shooting around towns, nature sites, night shots, etc, but nothing that truly requires a high priced external flash. If things extend from this job, and I start doing portraits eventually, then I'd definitely HAVE to put out the money for a good external flash. In that case, I definitely would NOT settle for a cheap one at $30.

[SergeTheBlerge]

Can you do a few test shots beforehand to see how much you can increase your Iso setting without getting excessive noise problems. I would suspect that Iso 800 should be OK but I would start to get nervous beyond 1200. However, a slight shadow noise issue can be improved with careful editing and would be preferable to having motion blur due to a long shutter speed.

I feel the same way. 800 ISO would be my max. I have to see exactly what type of shots the job director wants but I purchased myself an extended battery grip just in case. I've shot at various ISO settings and never use anything but manual mode.

[Tronhard]

I COULD, but as of now I wouldn't consider myself a professional or working photographer. I'm basically just doing hobby shooting around towns, nature sites, night shots, etc, but nothing that truly requires a high priced external flash. If things extend from this job, and I start doing portraits eventually, then I'd definitely HAVE to put out the money for a good external flash. In that case, I definitely would NOT settle for a cheap one at $30.

As I understand it this is a one-off shoot at present, so renting a good flash should be at least as cheap as paying for a cheap one and you will get far more control. THEN if you decide you are getting into this on a more ambitious scale you can look at purchasing a unit. But try-before-you-buy is a very wise way of trying something new and checking out the gear options.

[pschlute]

If things extend from this job, and I start doing portraits eventually, then I'd definitely HAVE to put out the money for a good external flash. In that case, I definitely would NOT settle for a cheap one at $30.

Have a look at these two tutorials. I am just a bumbling amateur, but found these very useful to understanding flash lighting set-ups even if the exact same scenario is not what you intend to shoot.

https://www.sekonic.com/united-kingd...ng-setups.aspx

https://nofilmschool.com/2015/03/lig...d-start-finish

[dje]

Serge

The first thing i would do is ask the church people if they are happy with flash photography in the church (there will be a flash for every child's shot).

I wouldn't buy the $39 flash unit you mention. You need one that works with the TTL system of the camera because you won't have time for manual metering. I've just bought a Godox TT350 for my "second camera" a Sony a6000 and it works well including the auto TTL function. They make different versions for different camera brands and seem to be going for about $85 at B&H. I'm quite impressed with mine so far.

I come back to your original statement

The woman basically wants frontal shots of the kids as they come up to the alter as well as a group shot.

If this is the case, I doubt that you can handle the light well enough without flash. It appears you have to capture moving children unless you can get them to stop momentarily on the way up. Without flash you will need a fairly fast shutter speed which will probably require a high ISO which could lead to noisy photos. I would suggest you do a trial run with this if possible. Flash is quite good at capturing motion because of it's short duration particularly if it is the dominant light source. I think you will be stuck with camera mounted external flash (with a diffuser on the flash) due to the circumstances. Off camera flash setups are probably not feasible in the circumstances you mention.I doubt the church people would want the front of the church cluttered with lighting stands or umbrellas but I could be wrong!

Dave

[rpcrowe]

What brand camera are you using. I mention this because if 1. finances are tight and 2. you are using Canon gear; you could pick up a used Canon 420EX flash at Adorama or B&H in New York City for around $50.00 or so. This is an older flash but will work very well in TTL mode with any Canon DSLR. It doesn't have manual capability but, if you add a diffuser/reflector along the lines of a Joe Demb Flash Diffuser Pro, you should be able to get decent imagery.

www.dembflashproducts.com

I am pretty certain that either Adorama or B&H would have a less expensive diffuser/reflector that will work. There was a time when eBay was flooded with Chinese knock offs of the Joe Demb Flash Diffuser Pro. I don't see them anymore. This unit might do the job for you...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Speedlight-...QAAOSwGhFZiA0i

I have many flash units but purchased an extra 420EX within the past year so I have two of them. I like these units because they are relatively small, have High Speed Sync capability and are quite reliable. I often carry one or two of these on every shoot I go on.

If you don't shoot Canon or if your budget isn't bare bones. I would tend to look at a more expensive flash. For your use, I would definitely want through the lens metering but, would accept a third party flash such as one of the Flashpoint units sold by Adorama these are Godox flashes that have been rebranded. Yongnuo also has a decent flash line...

If I were setting up for the kind of job you are anticipating, I would equip myself with the following:

1. A TTL capable flash unit (with extra batteries)

2. A Joe Demb Flash Diffuser Professional

3. An off camera sync cord

4. A Stroboframe Camera Flip Bracket
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Stroboframe...QAAOSwdd9achtP

This flash bracket will keep the flash unit over your lens. The camera flip will allow you to keep the flash in bounce mode without having to change the orientation of the flash when you switch from horizontal to vertical shooting...

I like the Stroboframe bracket with a solid top bar as referred to in the eBay posting above because I like to use this bar as a carry handle when not actually shooting.

The hotshoe flash on a Stroboframe Camera Flip Bracket modified with the Joe Demb Flash Diffuser will give decent lighting...



This shot was done at twilight outside without a ceiling off which to bounce the flash. I tilted the bounce card 45 degrees forward to direct the flash towards my subject. However, the light is still fairly soft and pleasing.



The hair light came from the setting sun...

[SergeTheBlerge]

Serge

The first thing i would do is ask the church people if they are happy with flash photography in the church (there will be a flash for every child's shot).

I wouldn't buy the $39 flash unit you mention. You need one that works with the TTL system of the camera because you won't have time for manual metering. I've just bought a Godox TT350 for my "second camera" a Sony a6000 and it works well including the auto TTL function. They make different versions for different camera brands and seem to be going for about $85 at B&H. I'm quite impressed with mine so far.

I come back to your original statement



If this is the case, I doubt that you can handle the light well enough without flash. It appears you have to capture moving children unless you can get them to stop momentarily on the way up. Without flash you will need a fairly fast shutter speed which will probably require a high ISO which could lead to noisy photos. I would suggest you do a trial run with this if possible. Flash is quite good at capturing motion because of it's short duration particularly if it is the dominant light source. I think you will be stuck with camera mounted external flash (with a diffuser on the flash) due to the circumstances. Off camera flash setups are probably not feasible in the circumstances you mention.I doubt the church people would want the front of the church cluttered with lighting stands or umbrellas but I could be wrong!

Dave

Yes there probably will be movement, and motion blur is definitely something I've had in mind. Since I'll be there alone then no there won't be any chance of me using lighting equipment further than a flash attachment.

[SergeTheBlerge]

Have a look at these two tutorials. I am just a bumbling amateur, but found these very useful to understanding flash lighting set-ups even if the exact same scenario is not what you intend to shoot.

https://www.sekonic.com/united-kingd...ng-setups.aspx

https://nofilmschool.com/2015/03/lig...d-start-finish

Thanks for the tutorials, but these look more like articles for studio shooting, which isn't what I'll be doing. The shoot will be at a church during an active Mass, so there really won't be any chance for me to direct people. I'll definitely look over them though, as it's information that's very good to know.

[SergeTheBlerge]

What brand camera are you using. I mention this because if 1. finances are tight and 2. you are using Canon gear; you could pick up a used Canon 420EX flash at Adorama or B&H in New York City for around $50.00 or so. This is an older flash but will work very well in TTL mode with any Canon DSLR. It doesn't have manual capability but, if you add a diffuser/reflector along the lines of a Joe Demb Flash Diffuser Pro, you should be able to get decent imagery.

www.dembflashproducts.com

I am pretty certain that either Adorama or B&H would have a less expensive diffuser/reflector that will work. There was a time when eBay was flooded with Chinese knock offs of the Joe Demb Flash Diffuser Pro. I don't see them anymore. This unit might do the job for you...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Speedlight-...QAAOSwGhFZiA0i

I have many flash units but purchased an extra 420EX within the past year so I have two of them. I like these units because they are relatively small, have High Speed Sync capability and are quite reliable. I often carry one or two of these on every shoot I go on.

If you don't shoot Canon or if your budget isn't bare bones. I would tend to look at a more expensive flash. For your use, I would definitely want through the lens metering but, would accept a third party flash such as one of the Flashpoint units sold by Adorama these are Godox flashes that have been rebranded. Yongnuo also has a decent flash line...

If I were setting up for the kind of job you are anticipating, I would equip myself with the following:

1. A TTL capable flash unit (with extra batteries)

2. A Joe Demb Flash Diffuser Professional

3. An off camera sync cord

4. A Stroboframe Camera Flip Bracket
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Stroboframe...QAAOSwdd9achtP

This flash bracket will keep the flash unit over your lens. The camera flip will allow you to keep the flash in bounce mode without having to change the orientation of the flash when you switch from horizontal to vertical shooting...

I like the Stroboframe bracket with a solid top bar as referred to in the eBay posting above because I like to use this bar as a carry handle when not actually shooting.

The hotshoe flash on a Stroboframe Camera Flip Bracket modified with the Joe Demb Flash Diffuser will give decent lighting...



This shot was done at twilight outside without a ceiling off which to bounce the flash. I tilted the bounce card 45 degrees forward to direct the flash towards my subject. However, the light is still fairly soft and pleasing.



The hair light came from the setting sun...

I'm using a Canon Rebel T6i. My current lenses are the standard 18-55mm, a 75-300mm (which is likely not going to be used as I won't need that much distance), a 50mm 1.8, and a 10-18mm wide angle, and a fisheye which obviously I won't be using. I'm thinking I'll likely be switching from my 50mm 1.8 to my standard 18-55. I could use that reflector softbox but I'd need a good flash to go along with it. I'd have to look up those stores because I wouldn't mind getting a good flash for $50. Yes, I'd say I was on a budget and prefer not spending an obscene amount on a flash.

I should also mention I've never used the equipment you're describing so if I can get these items early enough I'd have to put in some practice with them. The technical aspects of it I'd have to learn from scratch as I've never used them before. In terms of the 4 things you've listed, what would a sync cord be used for?

[William W]

I was asked to do a freelance job for a church confirmation Mass, an indoor church that's fairly lit, not bright but not too dark. . . The woman basically wants frontal shots of the kids as they come up to the alter (sic) as well as a group shot. I found this flash on Amazon and despite being affordable it comes with a hot shoe.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B010XCEABO...detail_2?psc=1

It looks decent enough and I would prefer not to use the flash installed with the camera as I feel it may come off as too bright. At the very least this external would give me enough light to where I don't have to turn the ISO up so high to make up for the indoor lighting. Any tips? The job seems simple enough but I'd like to do as good a job as I can. Thanks all.

I'm using a Canon Rebel T6i. My current lenses are the standard 18-55mm, a 75-300mm . . . a 50mm 1.8, and a 10-18mm wide angle, and a fisheye . . . I'm thinking I'll likely be switching from my 50mm 1.8 to my standard 18-55. I could use that reflector softbox but . . . I'd have to put in some practice with them. The technical aspects of it I'd have to learn from scratch as I've never used them before. In terms of the 4 things you've listed, what would a sync cord be used for?

A few points I consider important, some have already been mentioned:

> I’d keep it simple

> Church interiors are tricky to evaluate without a Light Meter: typically our eyes are not very good light meters because our brain adapts: the Church might look bright, but typically even in the brighter lit Churches, I would be pulling something like F/2.8 @ 1/50th @ ISO400 . .. and that is a dangerously slow Shutter Speed

> If you choose not to use Flash, then it will probably not be using an high ISO that will cause you pain, but it will be not being able to get a fast enough Shutter Speed for all the shots and you will have some (many?) of the Subjects exhibit Motion Blur. Typically these events have some emotion attached to them, for example I (and the Priest) have ‘sergeant-major drilled’ some Communicants on “walking speed up the Aisle” and we have practiced, yet some still will run

> Flash ‘freezes’ the action. That’s why Flash is your friend in this situation

> You need to be sure that Flash Photography is OK according to the Church rules – it likely will be if this Lady who has approached you has her ducks in order –but you need to confirm this point

> A Manual Flash (like you linked to) is not an huge problem, but is not the simplest solution either, and that might makes it a bigger problem for a first timer. I think it is good advice to rent: if there is some payment to you involved, then renting is a good option – if there is no payment involved at this time then perhaps the Lady could arrange reimbursement to you

> In my want to keep it simple, I suggest you mount a Dedicated Flash on the hot-shoe of the camera use a simple bounce card. A “Dedicated Flash” – means an Automatic Canon Flash

> You need to have a practice

> You need to have well charged batteries and or spare batteries, if it is a small group then good quality throwaway batteries will probably be OK, but you need to have a few sets and be able to change batteries quickly

> You need to understand that the Flash will have a 'recycle time'. there will be an indicator in your viewfinder when the Flash is ready to fire

> I would NOT change lenses

> For the walking up to the Altar for each New Communicant, you should expect satisfactory results using your Kit Lens (18 to 55) a Dedicated Canon Series 430 or 580 Flash; a bounce card; and the Flash on Full Auto; and the camera set on: P Mode; ISO400; Centre Point Focus; AI Servo AF; and have each Subject in the middle the frame: pull at least two shots of each Subject if you can

> For the Group Shot I suggest the same as above except switch focus to ONE SHOT and focus in the centre of the group – AND then make two more shots using Av Priority and set the camera to F/8. Have a look in the LCD and check eyes are open – one method is to say to the Subjects that they need to look at the camera with both eyes and have no heads in front of them

> Do not ever use wider than about 25mm on your lens for any of the shots

WW

[William W]

A simple Bounce Card can be a piece of stiff white card, A4 size secured at an angle to the head of the Flash and the Flash is pointed upwards - the card bounces the Flash forwards.

Here is an example of a DIY Bounce Card. It is more sophisticated than 'simple', but not overly complicated, and is very effective. It mounts on the flash with a velcro tie.



WW

[pschlute]

Thanks for the tutorials, but these look more like articles for studio shooting, which isn't what I'll be doing. The shoot will be at a church during an active Mass, so there really won't be any chance for me to direct people. I'll definitely look over them though, as it's information that's very good to know.

I realise that these won't directly help your church shoot, but the more you understand about how flash can be used, the more it will help in your understanding. You said you may wish to go on to do some portrait work. For that you will almost certainly need to consider multiple flash and off-camera flash.