Colour and Monochrome

[tbob]

I struggle with the concept of shooting solely to process in monochrome or colour. Probably my deficiencies in visualizing, consequently I often process in both and see which I like better. Two different emphasis genres. Often I find myself caught trying to decide if the image is about colour or tone and texture. As with this one.

Will I find myself condemned to some photographic purgatory for this heretical view?

[Manfred M]

Trevor - I always ask myself about what I will lose by removing the colour information from an image versus what I will gain from the simplification I will get.

In this case you lose the beautiful colours of the early morning sunlight hitting the building, fence and the tree, as well as the blue of the sky reflecting on the white snow. If you find that those elements are not important to the image, go B&W, if you do, stick with the colour version.

[Shadowman]

Trevor,

You might also consider divided the scene into fourths and see if any could stand on their own as black and white, I thought of this because most of your scene is snow and sky and would you really recognize it as such by itself.

[tbob]

Trevor - I always ask myself about what I will lose by removing the colour information from an image versus what I will gain from the simplification I will get.

In this case you lose the beautiful colours of the early morning sunlight hitting the building, fence and the tree, as well as the blue of the sky reflecting on the white snow. If you find that those elements are not important to the image, go B&W, if you do, stick with the colour version.

Thanks Manfred. I considered the loss of colour as a bit of a detriment However on balance the emphasis on the wood and snow textures in the black and white seemed to warrant at least a try.

[tbob]

Trevor,

You might also consider divided the scene into fourths and see if any could stand on their own as black and white, I thought of this because most of your scene is snow and sky and would you really recognize it as such by itself.

Interesting concept, could you elaborate a bit more on the technique and how you evaluate the result? I am not sure I am grasping how one does this.

[Manfred M]

Thanks Manfred. I considered the loss of colour as a bit of a detriment However on balance the emphasis on the wood and snow textures in the black and white seemed to warrant at least a try.

I tend to compose colour images slightly differently from B&W ones. While your images are not identical, they are still very close. I would likely do a fairly hard crop of the snow on the bottom of the image for B&W, and put more focus on the building and the tree. Those are the key elements of the B&W, whereas the sky and snow are more important in the colour version.

[Manfred M]

Trevor,

You might also consider divided the scene into fourths and see if any could stand on their own as black and white, I thought of this because most of your scene is snow and sky and would you really recognize it as such by itself.

Yes - I agree with Trevor. I am having trouble visualizing what might be accomplished with this approach.

[Shadowman]

Yes - I agree with Trevor. I am having trouble visualizing what might be accomplished with this approach.

If I'm trying to analyze my own image's effectiveness, especially if it carries through in black and white, I want to know if other sections give the viewer a sense of place or time, if I look at Trevor's skies I get nothing; if I look solely at the snow I get a sense of a light source (the cast shadows), without those shadows there's no sense of time in the image except I know its not night time.

[Manfred M]

if I look at Trevor's skies I get nothing

That tends to be the case when it is foggy. I wouldn't expect any texture because there is not.

if I look solely at the snow I get a sense of a light source (the cast shadows),

Yes, but there is lots of texture in the snow. Again, that's what one would expect with light like this.

without those shadows there's no sense of time in the image except I know its not night time.

In the B&W image, I would tend to agree, which is why I would question going that way. In the colour version we see the colour of the light that tells us that it is "golden hour". But even in the B&W, the shadows are soft and diffuse, which does suggest either very early in the day or very late in the day.

[JBW]

Let me try a slightly different approach?

Color is not the main ingredient, nor even the most important ingredient in any shot.

The most important ingredient is light.

Light is noticed by the different effects it has on different objects. Walls block it, windows allow it through. The waves and ripples in your shot produce shadows and textures.

When you remove the colour you are only losing something if the colour is crucial. If, when you remove the colour you are freeing up other effects of the light that you would miss with the colour left in you are adding to the shot not taking things away.

If you go to purgatory for your statement they must be reserving a place in Dante's 9th circle for me.

[Manfred M]

Color is not the main ingredient, nor even the most important ingredient in any shot.

The most important ingredient is light.

One of the intrinsic properties of light are its spectral characteristics, which is just a scientific way of the wavelengths of light. Shine a light on an object and some of the wavelengths are absorbed and others are reflected back at us (and the camera). Any object that absorbs all wavelengths will look black to us and any object that reflects them all will look white. Shine a red on light on a blue object and it will look black.

It doesn't matter if we are working in B&W or colour; the colour of the light that is shining on an object will impact how it looks. In natural light photography, this is rarely an issue except just around sunrise or sunset (golden hour and blue hour), so we tend to forget about this important property of light.

So colour is indeed crucial for any image; but photographers, especially B&W photographers tend to take it for granted. Quality of light (hard vs soft) and the direction of light are important, but without the spectral aspects of light, there would be no image.

There are definitely times where a photographer will go for a monochrome image and will ignore the colour components of the image. For some this is easy and they shoot mostly in B&W, for others, we think long and hard in deciding whether to do so or not.

[JBW]

One of the intrinsic properties of light are its spectral characteristics, which is just a scientific way of the wavelengths of light. Shine a light on an object and some of the wavelengths are absorbed and others are reflected back at us (and the camera). Any object that absorbs all wavelengths will look black to us and any object that reflects them all will look white. Shine a red on light on a blue object and it will look black.

It doesn't matter if we are working in B&W or colour; the colour of the light that is shining on an object will impact how it looks. In natural light photography, this is rarely an issue except just around sunrise or sunset (golden hour and blue hour), so we tend to forget about this important property of light.

So colour is indeed crucial for any image; but photographers, especially B&W photographers tend to take it for granted. Quality of light (hard vs soft) and the direction of light are important, but without the spectral aspects of light, there would be no image.

There are definitely times where a photographer will go for a monochrome image and will ignore the colour components of the image. For some this is easy and they shoot mostly in B&W, for others, we think long and hard in deciding whether to do so or not.

An object that casts a shadow will cast the same shadow no matter what colour you paint it. How objects react to light is not dependent the wavelength of the light particles. As long as they are within the visible light spectrum they will be visible.

If colour is crucial to seeing and understanding our environment then colour blind people would have died out millennia ago. Colour is an aid not a crucial factor to understand, appreciate and enjoy our world.

You apparently find it crucial for your work, most of the time. That's cool. Others Don't and that's cool too. Are you going to tell me that Donald's or Daisy May's work is lacking or second rate because they shoot in monochrome?
B.

[Manfred M]

An object that casts a shadow will cast the same shadow no matter what colour you paint it. How objects react to light is not dependent the wavelength of the light particles. As long as they are within the visible light spectrum they will be visible.

If colour is crucial to seeing and understanding our environment then colour blind people would have died out millennia ago. Colour is an aid not a crucial factor to understand, appreciate and enjoy our world.

You apparently find it crucial for your work, most of the time. That's cool. Others Don't and that's cool too. Are you going to tell me that Donald's or Daisy May's work is lacking or second rate because they shoot in monochrome?
B.

That is not at all what I am saying Brian.

What I am saying is that the colour of the light can affect a B&W image as well, but that is something that most photographers never notice. A B&W image shot at blue hour will look different than one shot a few minutes earlier during golden hour simply because the colour of the light is different, which will look different if shot before the beginning of golden hour. Sometimes these changes are subtle, sometimes they are not.

Anyone who has shot B&W on a stage where gelled lights are used will definitely notice this as the skin tones of the actors will look quite different, depending on the colours of the light.

As an example; this is a blue hour shot that I decided to do in B&W because I did not find the mood of the colours is what I wanted to capture. I'm simply suggesting eliminating colour needs to be a considered decision for someone like Trevor who is not a pure B&W shooter.





Donald and Sharon do a lot of B&W work, and that is absolutely fine by me. I know other photographers that shoot pretty well only B&W I have no issues at all with their approach. I get into bursts of just doing B&W work from time to time too.

[Shadowman]

I wonder if Trevor and Brian's approach to black and white photography are similar or different based on their preferred genres, Brian is currently interested in macro photography so if he were shooting with B & W in mind would it change his workflow, his thoughts toward the print or display? When I shoot macro, which is very rarely I'm solely concentrating on the effects of light, the angles, the DOF, when Trevor was setting up his abandoned building shot what was he concentrating on knowing he would process in black and white?

[billtils]

Thanks Manfred. I considered the loss of colour as a bit of a detriment However on balance the emphasis on the wood and snow textures in the black and white seemed to warrant at least a try.

+1 to that.

[JBW]

That is not at all what I am saying Brian.

What I am saying is that the colour of the light can affect a B&W image as well, but that is something that most photographers never notice. A B&W image shot at blue hour will look different than one shot a few minutes earlier during golden hour simply because the colour of the light is different, which will look different if shot before the beginning of golden hour. Sometimes these changes are subtle, sometimes they are not.

Anyone who has shot B&W on a stage where gelled lights are used will definitely notice this as the skin tones of the actors will look quite different, depending on the colours of the light.

As an example; this is a blue hour shot that I decided to do in B&W because I did not find the mood of the colours is what I wanted to capture. I'm simply suggesting eliminating colour needs to be a considered decision for someone like Trevor who is not a pure B&W shooter.





Donald and Sharon do a lot of B&W work, and that is absolutely fine by me. I know other photographers that shoot pretty well only B&W I have no issues at all with their approach. I get into bursts of just doing B&W work from time to time too.

I believe that at this point we are saying the same thing in different ways.

[JBW]

I wonder if Trevor and Brian's approach to black and white photography are similar or different based on their preferred genres, Brian is currently interested in macro photography so if he were shooting with B & W in mind would it change his workflow, his thoughts toward the print or display? When I shoot macro, which is very rarely I'm solely concentrating on the effects of light, the angles, the DOF, when Trevor was setting up his abandoned building shot what was he concentrating on knowing he would process in black and white?

I don't know how Trevor works but I shoot in B&W so that I can see the details of the shot. When I get back to my digital dark room I look and decide which way to go.

[Shadowman]

I don't know how Trevor works but I shoot in B&W so that I can see the details of the shot. When I get back to my digital dark room I look and decide which way to go.

See I do macro so rarely that I couldn't see through to the end result as I would be too concentrated on the setup and that is probably why I do so little macro; I would probably have to do a sketch beforehand if I thought through to the final output in print form and I'm only talking about printing macro in black and white. I can visually sort out beforehand the final output of a street photography or cityscape as a black and white print, for macro I'm more concerned with just getting a well balanced art object and if there are any reflections to deal with how I'm going to handle the angles.

[JBW]

See I do macro so rarely that I couldn't see through to the end result as I would be too concentrated on the setup and that is probably why I do so little macro; I would probably have to do a sketch beforehand if I thought through to the final output in print form and I'm only talking about printing macro in black and white. I can visually sort out beforehand the final output of a street photography or cityscape as a black and white print, for macro I'm more concerned with just getting a well balanced art object and if there are any reflections to deal with how I'm going to handle the angles.

I understand. I have gotten pretty good with Robber flies because I've taken so many shots the set up is almost instinctual.

[tbob]

I wonder if Trevor and Brian's approach to black and white photography are similar or different based on their preferred genres, Brian is currently interested in macro photography so if he were shooting with B & W in mind would it change his workflow, his thoughts toward the print or display? When I shoot macro, which is very rarely I'm solely concentrating on the effects of light, the angles, the DOF, when Trevor was setting up his abandoned building shot what was he concentrating on knowing he would process in black and white?

When I shot this, I knew the uniform sky and very low detail snow would isolate the three main objects (house, willow tree and fence). Both for colour and monochrome I considered this to be a benefit for the final image. While balancing on top of a snowdrift to shoot this, I was not anticipating that I would like the textures and tones in the snow enough to enhance them in post processing for both versions. That is the sort of thing that happens a lot as I assess the strengths and weaknesses of an image when I get to processing in the relative safety of my chair versus out in the field . [Although I did get a nasty burn on my leg from some hot tea once]