HELP Please.How to use the Exposure Comp in 'M' mode on Canon 70D?

[russellsnr]

Hi, I use a Canon 70D and a 6D and I want to use Exposure Comp in Manual mode as can be seen in this video at 3;40 (tIPO 4). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBzwNsPxmVk
I no it works in AV mode.
I have tried with both cameras but cannot get it to work, all that either (Main or Quick Control Dial) does is change the AEB options for 1,2 or 3 stops for HDR shooting.
Thankyou, Russ

[DanK]

I haven't watched the video, but there is no need for exposure compensation (EC) in manual mode. The point of EC is to tell the camera to change exposure from whatever the camera will set, given the scene and your metering choice. In manual mode, the camera isn't setting exposure; you are. If you want more or less exposure than the meter tells you is neutral, just set the camera differently. The camera has an exposure scale at the bottom of the viewfinder. In manual mode, aligning the pointer to the middle of the scale sets the camera to what that metering mode suggests is neutral. For EC, just set the pointer above or below the center, by however many stops you want to change it.

[Manfred M]

I have never understood why anyone would want to use exposure compensation in manual mode. Exposure compensation was designed to override the recommendations made by the light meter reading when using one of the automated modes.

When shooting in manual, changing either the shutter speed or aperture by using dialing in a new value is a lot faster and easier than what is recommended in the video. The only possible exception is shooting in manual mode and using Auto-ISO (which is a level of automation than would need to be overridden because it can throw the correct exposure off).

[Donald]

Can you set exposure compensation in manual mode?

I shoot in manual all the time. Why would you want to be worried about exposure compensation? Just twiddle Shutter, Aperture or ISO.

[xpatUSA]

In tip #4, the video view of the LCD is clear enough to show M mode, f/8, 1/1000 sec but he mentions that it's in 'Auto ISO' ... not what I would call "manual" but that's what he said.

Wonder if the EC, clearly shown being adjusted, has to do with that?

[Dave Humphries]

If you watch the Video, he is using Auto ISO, therefore EC should work Russell - unless you are not using Auto ISO!

Regarding it's use with a fixed ISO - the simple/short answer is that EC does work in M mode for Nikon, but not for Canon cameras. That said, this info hasn't been re-checked recently with newer models of either brand, but it always used to be the case.

Why would you want to use EC with M mode?
Well, if you know you're shooting a scene that normally requires an EC offset, say a small white object (distant Egret?) against a dark background that's also in shadow, but the light is changing (clouds across sun?), you can use EC to centre the meter reading that gives correct subject exposure, then when the light changes (but nothing else does) you just adjust one or more settings to re-centre the meter (rather than set it lopsided).
Could you argue a case to use another mode in this situation, quite possibly, but occasionally, for a few shooting scenarios (that even fewer photographers may face), EC with 'fixed ISO' M can be useful. I accept that YMMV

Cheers,
Dave

[Manfred M]

he mentions that it's in 'Auto ISO' ... not what I would call "manual" but that's what he said.

I did not listen to the whole video, but if he said that, then the approach makes sense. Like you, I have a problem thinking of that as "manual" as this is still a level of automation where the camera is making decisions for the photographer. I shoot manual when I want total control of the exposure settings.

If one wants to stick to a particular aperture and shutter speed setting, that is the only other variable left to work with in getting the exposure "right". I do use auto-ISO on occasions where the light is highly variable, but it is not my preferred way of shooting. I generally like to keep my ISO as low as I can; that is something I carry over from my film days. My usual work flow is to assess the lighting and then select the appropriate ISO and keep it there.

[pnodrog]

Having EC available in manual mode when using Auto ISO is a major advantage Nikon offers over Canon. I have seen an article on a work around via menu settings that is available for some of the advanced Canon models but I did not keep a note of it.

[russellsnr]

OK, Thankyou for all the comments. I do use 'M' most of the time so the question was more of a "How does he do that"? and I didn't make myself to clear in the OP. Again thankyou for the replies. Russ

[rpcrowe]

I suspect that photographers who have learned their trade/art working with film, which had a finite ISO for each roll, are less accepting of the auto ISO method of automating exposure. At first, I looked down my nose at Auto ISO but, have become more accepting of that method of exposure determination and control.

I will use this method along with setting the f/stop and shutter speed manually when I want to shoot with a specific shutter speed and a specific f/stop. This is most often the case in sports and some other action photography when I want to shoot with a minimum shutter speed and a wide open aperture. That way, I can be sure of getting a shot that is not impacted by subject movement and which has the most narrow DOF, given the Focal length and the distanced at which the lens is focused. This is especially useful when I am shooting in rapidly changing light conditions.

The one unique thing about the 6D2 (I think it is unique to that camera) is the ability to configure any one of three rear buttons so that when the camera is in manual mode and auto ISO selected; pressing that pre-configured button will allow you to lighten or darken your image using the rear dial. That would be akin to using a plus or minus exposure compensation...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzph-CTIxOQ

[William W]

In tip #4, the video view of the LCD is clear enough to show M mode, f/8, 1/1000 sec but he mentions that it's in 'Auto ISO' ... Wonder if the EC, clearly shown being adjusted, has to do with that?

I reckon so.

***

Hi, I use a Canon 70D and a 6D and I want to use Exposure Comp in Manual mode as can be seen in this video at 3;40 (tIPO 4). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBzwNsPxmVk . . .

Referring to the above responses and assuming that you have AUTO ISO engaged: I am 99.99% sure that it is impossible with the 70D and 6D.

***

Regarding Canon EOS Digital:
> Exposure Compensation is impossible in (explicit) MANUAL MODE on any model camera.
> Exposure Compensation is possible in MANUAL MODE with AUTO ISO engaged on a few models only.

Canon used a FIRMWARE UPDATE around Jan 2014 to allow the EOS1DX to use EC in Manual Mode when Auto ISO is engaged.

The last data in my files states that the following models allow the same:
EOS-1DXMkII
EOS 5DS
EOS 5DSR
EOS 7DMkII
EOS 80D

***

However, the Video Presenter lists his gear as:
Canon EOS 5D Mk IV; Canon EOS 7D Mk II; Canon EOS 5D Mk III.

The backs of these cameras appear the same/similar, so it is difficult to determine which one he is using in the demo, but probably could be interrogated by the LCD Display layout if one has the time and interest.

Suffice to mention that the 5DMkIV was released after the 1DXMkII and 80D, so it is safe assumption that camera will also support the “EC in Manual + A. ISO” feature.

***

Importantly, it is worth reiterating that ASAIK - NO Canon DSLR supports Exposure Compensation in (explicit) Manual Mode, whereas I think this feature might be available in (some/many/all?) Nikon DSLR: ....

More importantly: I think nearly all, perhaps all, Nikons equipped with AUTO ISO allow EC in Manual Mode when Auto ISO is engaged - and this can be a very useful feature and worth having.

The engineering issue is, that the generic functionality of Exposure Compensation in Canon DSLRs uses the QCD (Quick Control Dial) to effect Exposure Compensation: but when the camera is in Manual Mode, the QCD is used to control the Aperture.

When Canon first introduced Auto ISO, a long period of time passed and many cries by dedicated Canon Users went unheard before Canon developed a Firmware workaround for the EOS-1D X to support EC in Manual Mode when Auto ISO is engaged.

It seems that feature is now filtering down to the lesser priced model cameras – and frankly it is about time it did.

Stating what Richard wrote a different way - with Film, there were only TWO variables we could set and/or tweak on the camera - those being Av (Aperture) and Tv (Shutter Speed), so logically we could have EC when in Av Priority (and that would tweak the Shutter Speed which the camera decides automatically) and visa versa: additionally we could have EC in P Mode and that would tweak either/or Aperture/Shutter Speed.

When Digital came along there was a revolutionary change as we could 'select' a different ISO between shots - now although not exactly the same, but certainly synonymous with being able to select a different film speed between shots.

A logical advancement was to allow camera automation to select the ISO - and "bingo" we now have THREE variables which can be automated - and thus "Manual Mode" (meaning I select the Aperture and Shutter manually) takes on a whole new meaning if the camera is running up and down the ISO selecting that variable automatically.

WW

[russellsnr]

I reckon so.

***



Referring to the above responses and assuming that you have AUTO ISO engaged: I am 99.99% sure that it is impossible with the 70D and 6D.

***

Regarding Canon EOS Digital:
> Exposure Compensation is impossible in (explicit) MANUAL MODE on any model camera.
> Exposure Compensation is possible in MANUAL MODE with AUTO ISO engaged on a few models only.

Canon used a FIRMWARE UPDATE around Jan 2014 to allow the EOS1DX to use EC in Manual Mode when Auto ISO is engaged.

The last data in my files states that the following models allow the same:
EOS-1DXMkII
EOS 5DS
EOS 5DSR
EOS 7DMkII
EOS 80D

***

However, the Video Presenter lists his gear as:
Canon EOS 5D Mk IV; Canon EOS 7D Mk II; Canon EOS 5D Mk III.

The backs of these cameras appear the same/similar, so it is difficult to determine which one he is using in the demo, but probably could be interrogated by the LCD Display layout if one has the time and interest.

Suffice to mention that the 5DMkIV was released after the 1DXMkII and 80D, so it is safe assumption that camera will also support the “EC in Manual + A. ISO” feature.

***

Importantly, it is worth reiterating that ASAIK - NO Canon DSLR supports Exposure Compensation in (explicit) Manual Mode, whereas I think this feature might be available in (some/many/all?) Nikon DSLR: ....

More importantly: I think nearly all, perhaps all, Nikons equipped with AUTO ISO allow EC in Manual Mode when Auto ISO is engaged - and this can be a very useful feature and worth having.

The engineering issue is, that the generic functionality of Exposure Compensation in Canon DSLRs uses the QCD (Quick Control Dial) to effect Exposure Compensation: but when the camera is in Manual Mode, the QCD is used to control the Aperture.

When Canon first introduced Auto ISO, a long period of time passed and many cries by dedicated Canon Users went unheard before Canon developed a Firmware workaround for the EOS-1D X to support EC in Manual Mode when Auto ISO is engaged.

It seems that feature is now filtering down to the lesser priced model cameras – and frankly it is about time it did.

Stating what Richard wrote a different way - with Film, there were only TWO variables we could set and/or tweak on the camera - those being Av (Aperture) and Tv (Shutter Speed), so logically we could have EC when in Av Priority (and that would tweak the Shutter Speed which the camera decides automatically) and visa versa: additionally we could have EC in P Mode and that would tweak either/or Aperture/Shutter Speed.

When Digital came along there was a revolutionary change as we could 'select' a different ISO between shots - now although not exactly the same, but certainly synonymous with being able to select a different film speed between shots.

A logical advancement was to allow camera automation to select the ISO - and "bingo" we now have THREE variables which can be automated - and thus "Manual Mode" (meaning I select the Aperture and Shutter manually) takes on a whole new meaning if the camera is running up and down the ISO selecting that variable automatically.

WW

Hi, Thankyou, Yes it seems that this option is with Auto ISO set and only on the newer cameras. I am just getting into bird photography and the 70D does the job thus far and as already pointed out above in 'M' mode you can do what you wish without this option. Thanks again, Russ

[Donald]

I have a problem thinking of that (camera in Auto ISO) as "manual" as this is still a level of automation where the camera is making decisions for the photographer. I shoot manual when I want total control of the exposure settings.

Nothing to do with the question as first posed by Russell, but this highlights the lack of definition of terms in photography. Like Manfred, I would never have thought of 'Manual' meaning the camera being on Auto ISO and this is what I was taught - You are in charge of all 3 features.

So, if we say that we shoot in manual, we maybe need to qualify that and say what we mean.

In reply to Bill's post, both the 5DS and the 5D Mk1V do allow Auto ISO to be used when the Mode Dial is at 'M' (I've just checked it). Or maybe that wasn't the question. I've never used EC, so don't know how it works on the Canon's.

[William W]

. . . I would never have thought of 'Manual' meaning the camera being on Auto ISO and this is what I was taught - You are in charge of all 3 features. . . So, if we say that we shoot in manual, we maybe need to qualify that and say what we mean.

Professor Sibson was a great thinker and I was honoured to call him ‘friend’.

This is a most concise and precise explanation/overview of this issue.

Whereupon reading Robin’s commentary in 2013, I adopted the adjective “explicit” to differentiate between these two functionalities:

> '(Explicit) Manual Mode'
> 'Manual Mode with Auto ISO engaged'

Sibson wrote:

“I have seen a lot of muddled thinking on this issue in various forums, usually arising from the semantics of the word "manual". I [hope] that the following clarifies the issue.

There are three parameters affecting exposure: aperture setting, shutter speed, and ISO. You can set each one of these manually, or allow the camera to choose. Here are the eight combinations.

1. M mode, explicit ISO: all manual
2. M mode, ISO A: aperture and shutter speed set manually, camera chooses ISO
3. Av mode, explicit ISO: aperture and ISO set manually, camera chooses shutter speed
4. Av mode, ISO A: aperture set manually, camera chooses combination of shutter speed and ISO
5. Tv mode, explicit ISO: shutter speed and ISO set manually, camera chooses aperture
6. Tv mode, ISO A: shutter speed set manually, camera chooses combination of aperture and ISO
7. P mode, explicit ISO: ISO set manually, camera chooses combination of aperture and shutter speed
8. P mode, ISO A: camera chooses combination of aperture, shutter speed and ISO

The concept of exposure compensation as a separate setting is meaningless in case 1 because the camera is not making any choices for you; you just choose different settings to apply any desired compensation.

We are all familiar with exposure compensation in cases 3 to 8 inclusive, achieved by using the QCD while metering is active, and with the setting being persistent for future exposures.

The problem arises in case 2, often dismissed as meaningless by people who are not thinking straight on the basis that "you can't expect to apply exposure compensation in manual mode".

Of course exposure compensation is meaningful: the camera is making a choice for you (ISO setting) in order to achieve what it thinks is correct exposure; but if, for any of the usual reasons, you know better, you may want the camera to give you a higher or lower ISO setting.

The problem is that you can't do it.

One reason for this may be that there is no spare dial with which to apply EC. In M mode (normally) you have aperture and shutter speed set (one way round or the other) using the main dial and QCD, so the QCD is not available to set EC as it is in other modes. But there are surely more than enough buttons on the camera to allow this to be overcome. For example, the SET button does nothing by default when the camera is shooting, and the things that it can be programmed to do while shooting duplicate functionality available with other controls.

It would require no more than a minor firmware tweak to allow SET+main dial to be programmed to do EC in case 2.

Would this be useful? Unequivocally YES."

REF: © Photo.net Name Media; Robin Sibson; Canon EOS Forum; April 5 2013
Commentary re-published in full, quoting copyright, solely for educational purposes.

[LINK]

[LINK]

[Donald]

Excellent piece, Bill.

From now on, I shoot in 'Explicit Manual Mode' or 'All Manual'

[shreds]

So by that definition, auto ISO would require changes to the firmware. Allowing the camera to make decisions for you is therefore not 'manual' but assisted and partly 'automatic'.

You apply 'exposure compensation' in manual, by manually adjusting one of the parameters available to you.

Also a little bit like with making a film choice. You decide what ISO rated film to buy and install, although even then, it is possible to 'push' the film, during exposure and in development/printing for certain results.

Of course the 'base sensitivity' of the digital sensor is pre set by the manufacturer of the sensor chip and chosen by the camera manufacturer even if alterable by the user at the expense of more 'noise' due to the sensitivity to light. The dynamic range of different sensors then becomes relevant as to how far it is possible to 'stretch the boundaries'. You make that decision in the camera you buy…base ISO of:- 50 ISO, 100 ISO, 200 ISO, plus its effective DR in the number of stops possible etc, which is usually quoted in high end camera specifications.

I will continue like Donald to consider 'Manual' as 'explicit all manual'.

[DanK]

My comment above assume full manual, Sibson's #1, where EC isn't relevant.

Re #2: I almost never use auto ISO, but there are a few circumstances in which I find it useful, and in some of those circumstances, the fact that my Canons won't allow for EC is a pain. For example, I once shot a play that entailed highly variable lighting, and so I used auto ISO while setting the aperture and shutter speed to what was needed for DOF and freezing motion. Given the nature of the lighting, the camera tended to underexpose, which was a problem particularly because of the relatively high ISOs. Had I been able to add some exposure, the end result would have been considerably cleaner.

[rpcrowe]

Bill quotes Professor Sibson,

"Of course exposure compensation is meaningful: the camera is making a choice for you (ISO setting) in order to achieve what it thinks is correct exposure; but if, for any of the usual reasons, you know better, you may want the camera to give you a higher or lower ISO setting.

The problem is that you can't do it.

One reason for this may be that there is no spare dial with which to apply EC. In M mode (normally) you have aperture and shutter speed set (one way round or the other) using the main dial and QCD, so the QCD is not available to set EC as it is in other modes. But there are surely more than enough buttons on the camera to allow this to be overcome. For example, the SET button does nothing by default when the camera is shooting, and the things that it can be programmed to do while shooting duplicate functionality available with other controls." (My Italics)

That is exactly what Canon has done with the 6D Mark-2. I suspect that this may become a standard feature on cameras that Canon will introduce in the future.

ASFAIK: The first Canon DSLR to offer fully operational Auto ISO when the camera is in the manual mode was the Canon 7D. The Canon 50D had a "watered down" version of Auto ISO in the manual mode.

Here is an older (2011) DPReview overview of Auto ISO with the camera in manual mode...
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/02...for-canon-slrs

[xpatUSA]

Of course the 'base sensitivity' of the digital sensor is pre set by the manufacturer of the sensor chip and chosen by the camera manufacturer even if alterable by the user at the expense of more 'noise' due to the sensitivity to light.

Hi Ian,

To be pedantic (moi?) the sensitivity of the sensor itself can not usually be altered by the user.

There are only a few sensors that have different size photo-cells or additional capacitors to affect sensitivity (Volts per electron, often uV/e-)

I will continue like Donald to consider 'Manual' as 'explicit all manual'.

Me too, we're in good company ...

[skitterbug]

I don't know if this is helpful or not, but the EC can also be altered in Manual with auto ISO on the Canon 7D Mark II by using the custom control buttons to configure the "set" button to be able to change the EC if needed. I haven't advanced enough to fully utilize this ability but I thought I'd pass along the link to the page that explained it. Maybe it will help so long as I am understanding the issue under discussion correctly.