Apparently I'm about to get serious about the tech side of photography

[JBW]

I found two free online photography courses. One from Harvard, one from Google. Wish me luck.

[NorthernFocus]

Good luck, Brian. I'm one of those who subscribe to the theory of "those who can't do teach". But it's just a theory...

[rpcrowe]

Good luck, Brian. I'm one of those who subscribe to the theory of "those who can't do teach". But it's just a theory...

Dan, the way I used to hear that phrase was.

Those who can; DO
Those who can't do; TEACH
Those who can neither do nor teach, ADMINISTRATE

BTW: A person doesn't need to be a good photographer in order to critique photographs. However, IMO, a person needs to be a good photographer in order to teach how to shoot good photographs.

However, when I attended University of California School of Cinematography (on the Navy's dime) many if not most of our professors were working professionals from the Hollywood motion picture industry. As an example, one of the visiting professors teaching animation was Chuck Jones. Chuck was responsible for any number of my favorite cartoons and cartoon characters such as, The Road Runner...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Jones

Getting more serious, there are a surprising number of free online photo related courses available,
https://www.google.com/search?q=onli...hrome&ie=UTF-8

I think that any of these courses might be beneficial, at the very least; they might give the photographer an incentive to shoot in an ordered manner...

[Shadowman]

The best one I heard as the 3rd line of the "those who can't teach; teach gym", School of Rock.

[MrB]

In England:
Those who can, do.
Those who can't, teach.
Those who can't teach, teach teachers.
Those who can't teach teachers become education consultants and advisors.
Usually one of those with no experience of any of the above is appointed as Secretary of State for Education. According to the gov.uk web site, the career experience outside of politics of the present holder of that office was to spend "18 years working in the pubs, brewing and hotel industries, in Britain and abroad". Perhaps he met lots of teachers there?

[Manfred M]

I think you should learn a lot from both those sources, Brian.

I had looked over the Google material before and it is quite comprehensive. The Harvard material I had not visited before, but after a quick overview looks like it is less intimidating / technical than the Google material.

The Google material is quite complex and goes well beyond what most courses teach on the technical side of things. That should not be all that surprising as the Google course was written by a computer scientist and aimed at people working at Google.

The only "failing" I see with both these courses is that while the delivery mechanism is primarily online, the assignments are handled by human instructors. That feedback and interaction, that I find critical to the learning process, is unfortunately missing.

[DanK]

I'm one of those who subscribe to the theory of "those who can't do teach". But it's just a theory...

No, actually, it appears from context to be an assertion, not a hypothesis. And in the way "theory" is typically used in science, it isn't a theory in any case. In law, perhaps.

In my experience, this assertion is usually bandied about by people who haven't taught and have no clue how easy or hard it is to teach.

I have. At one extreme, I taught remedial reading to little kids with disabilities. At the other extreme, I taught quantitative methods to doctoral students at one of the country's best universities. Those two extremes had one thing in common: it was very hard to do it well. As I explained to a friend when I had only taught for a few years: it's a job that is very easy to do poorly but damned hard to do well. And yes, I can do what I teach.

It may be no accident that in some of the countries where kids outperform American and British kids by a large margin, teaching is an esteemed profession, and perhaps for that reason, it attracts very able people.

Having a minister of education who doesn't know anything about education (we have one too) isn't surprising in countries that have little respect for teaching.

[JBW]

I think you should learn a lot from both those sources, Brian.

I had looked over the Google material before and it is quite comprehensive. The Harvard material I had not visited before, but after a quick overview looks like it is less intimidating / technical than the Google material.

The Google material is quite complex and goes well beyond what most courses teach on the technical side of things. That should not be all that surprising as the Google course was written by a computer scientist and aimed at people working at Google.

The only "failing" I see with both these courses is that while the delivery mechanism is primarily online, the assignments are handled by human instructors. That feedback and interaction, that I find critical to the learning process, is unfortunately missing.

I know I shall learn a lot if for no other reason than this is my area of greatest ignorance

[JBW]

Good luck, Brian. I'm one of those who subscribe to the theory of "those who can't do teach". But it's just a theory...

I tried teaching. Not my forte.

[rpcrowe]

In England:
Those who can, do.
Those who can't, teach.
Those who can't teach, teach teachers.
Those who can't teach teachers become education consultants and advisors.
Usually one of those with no experience of any of the above is appointed as Secretary of State for Education. According to the gov.uk web site, the career experience outside of politics of the present holder of that office was to spend "18 years working in the pubs, brewing and hotel industries, in Britain and abroad". Perhaps he met lots of teachers there?

Before I received my Master's Degree in Rehabilitation Counseling I was required to take the Graduate Record Examination (GRE). As a part of the results that I received was a breakdown as to the standings of persons with undergraduate degrees in Science, Business, Art, Social Sciences, Mathematics and Education in the various sections of the test.

The sections of the GRE included: English, Social Studies. The Humanities, Science and Math. The persons who had their undergraduate degrees in Education came out last in every section. That means that Art graduates fared better in math and science than Education majors. Science and Math graduates did better in Humanities and Social Studies than did Education majors. Engineering degree holders scored better in English than Education majors... And so on - and so on...

That is a pretty sad state of affairs Or as Leo Dorocher, the famous New York Giants Baseball Manager would say, "How do you like them apples"

BTW: One of my undergraduate degrees was in Vocational Education

Anyhow, Brian, I take every course I can find that is free or reasonably priced. About once a month, I attend a Photoshop Course and I frequently take free courses at a local camera store. I took a morning course in shooting video with the Canon DSLR cameras and I have taken four Canon Courses on their DSLR cameras in still photography. This weekend there is a free course in creative lighting sponsored by Phottix. I have a hunch that this might be more if a sales pitch than an educational seminar but, that's O.K. The first time I learned about NIK Software was at a seminar given by the NIK folks at their San Diego location before Google purchased the company...

[JBW]

Before I received my Master's Degree in Rehabilitation Counseling I was required to take the Graduate Record Examination (GRE). As a part of the results that I received was a breakdown as to the standings of persons with undergraduate degrees in Science, Business, Art, Social Sciences, Mathematics and Education in the various sections of the test.

The sections of the GRE included: English, Social Studies. The Humanities, Science and Math. The persons who had their undergraduate degrees in Education came out last in every section. That means that Art graduates fared better in math and science than Education majors. Science and Math graduates did better in Humanities and Social Studies than did Education majors. Engineering degree holders scored better in English than Education majors... And so on - and so on...

That is a pretty sad state of affairs Or as Leo Dorocher, the famous New York Giants Baseball Manager would say, "How do you like them apples"

BTW: One of my undergraduate degrees was in Vocational Education

Anyhow, Brian, I take every course I can find that is free or reasonably priced. About once a month, I attend a Photoshop Course and I frequently take free courses at a local camera store. I took a morning course in shooting video with the Canon DSLR cameras and I have taken four Canon Courses on their DSLR cameras in still photography. This weekend there is a free course in creative lighting sponsored by Phottix. I have a hunch that this might be more if a sales pitch than an educational seminar but, that's O.K. The first time I learned about NIK Software was at a seminar given by the NIK folks at their San Diego location before Google purchased the company...

Must be nice to have so many options. The last time I looked Dumatguete, the biggest city near us had a one room public library with books from the 1960's.

[Manfred M]

The sections of the GRE included: English, Social Studies. The Humanities, Science and Math. The persons who had their undergraduate degrees in Education came out last in every section. That means that Art graduates fared better in math and science than Education majors. Science and Math graduates did better in Humanities and Social Studies than did Education majors. Engineering degree holders scored better in English than Education majors... And so on - and so on...

One sample from data taken from one school taken many years ago is hardly a statistically significant analysis of the state of the education in the USA. I know some high school teachers from the time my daughters were in school who were well qualified to teach and had a wide range of knowledge and experience. Several had worked in industry as engineers, mathematicians, etc. and decided to get into teaching later in their careers because of their love of teaching. That being said, teachers are well compensated where I live, although I do understand that there are problems competing with industry salaries especially in the in the maths and sciences (chemistry and physics, less so in biology).

I feel DanK is correct and there is a strong correlation between teacher's salaries and social acceptance in a society and how well students are doing in school. A quick look at the results of the OECD's PISA scores by country suggests Dan knows what he is writing about. I know a teacher from the UK and one from Belgium, and based on their stories (assuming that they are indicative as to how the education systems there work), I can appreciate why these countries are not doing as well as they should in the international rankings.

https://www.compareyourcountry.org/p...ntry/bel?lg=en

[DanK]

The sections of the GRE included: English, Social Studies. The Humanities, Science and Math. The persons who had their undergraduate degrees in Education came out last in every section.

the fact that many people entering teaching in the US are relatively poorly prepared academically has been a focus of discussion in the policy world for a generation. Of course, many are very well prepared, but the mean is lower than one would want. It's hardly surprising. It's a difficult and very isolating job, often with inadequate support; it's paid very poorly compared to competing occupations; and teachers face the disrespect shown in several of the postings in this thread. And this has gotten worse in recent decades. For example, coincidentally, Paul Krugman had a column in today's NY Times pointing out the decline in relative salaries of teachers and the severe underfunding of public schools in some parts of the US. (Some districts have even had to drop back to 4 days per week.) If we want the kind of teaching force one finds in some other countries, we will have to treat teachers the way they do. A simple place to start would be to avoid the kinds of postings we had in this thread, which weren't even relevant to the OP.

[rpcrowe]

"One sample from data taken from one school taken many years ago is hardly a statistically significant analysis of the state of the education in the USA."

This was not a sample from one school. Rather it was a nationwide compilation of all the students in America who were working towards graduate degrees in 1990.

Sure there are many dedicated and intelligent teachers in the USA K-12 systems. I have also known some really ignorant ones also. I remember being ridiculed by a second grade teacher when I answered her query to the class regarding what we did over the weekend. I said that I worked on my stamp collection since I had just received some new stamps from Monaco. She corrected me and said that I meant Morocco. I said, no I worked on some stamps from Monaco. She said there was no place called Monaco Of course this was before Grace Kelly became Princess of Monaco and even ignorant folks learned of her new country...

[Manfred M]

"One sample from data taken from one school taken many years ago is hardly a statistically significant analysis of the state of the education in the USA."

This was not a sample from one school. Rather it was a nationwide compilation of all the students in America who were working towards graduate degrees in 1990.

Thanks for the clarification Richard. That point was not clear to me from your original posting.

I did know some people who finished their bachelor's degrees who couldn't get a job and went on to teacher's college after finishing their degrees. The majority though, went because they wanted to teach.

In any profession, there are people who managed to managed to get their degree only to find out that they are totally unsuited to the work they are technically qualified to do. I did work with one engineer who graduated at the top of his university class but was incapable of working in the real world without a lot of hand-holding and supervision. Once a problem was laid out into appropriately sized pieces of work, he could do the analysis; but was totally incapable of figuring out how to break down a problem into the right steps and the right sequence in order to do the analysis. Unfortunately, we only tend to remember the really good ones and the really bad ones.

I am only aware of the entrance qualifications to teacher's colleges in the areas where I live. In Ontario one has to have a Bachelor's Degree to qualify for Teacher's College. I suspect New York State may be similar, as it is the only place outside of Ontario where the Provincial Education Ministry accepts teaching degrees from. There are Concurrent Education program, where one can earn both a BA or BSc at the same time as a B Ed, but in all cases teachers need a degree over and above the degree in teaching.

Sure there are many dedicated and intelligent teachers in the USA K-12 systems. I have also known some really ignorant ones also. I remember being ridiculed by a second grade teacher when I answered her query to the class regarding what we did over the weekend. I said that I worked on my stamp collection since I had just received some new stamps from Monaco. She corrected me and said that I meant Morocco. I said, no I worked on some stamps from Monaco. She said there was no place called Monaco Of course this was before Grace Kelly became Princess of Monaco and even ignorant folks learned of her new country...

And we all have stories like that one regarding teachers (I have a number of these too). But I can virtually guarantee that other "educated" people might have given the same answer. I have definitely gotten blanks stares from engineers, doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc. when I had mentioned travelling to Bhutan, Brunei, Namibia, etc. On the other hand, don't ask me about popular televisions shows, movies, music or professional sports as I wouldn't have a clue.

[rpcrowe]

That may be the case in Canada but, I do know that in at least one U.S. University (San Diego State University - from which I received my graduate degree) when a student cannot quite make it intellectually in many majors, the Guidance Department of that University traditionally directed the student into pursuing a degree in education

Along that line, there are many people who opt for careers in education because of the large amount of time off that job allows: Winter and Spring holidays (previously named Christmas and Easter breaks) as well as all the normal holidays and a great summer vacation.

My daughter almost did that until she realized that she detested kids I wonder how many folks don't learn that until after they are teaching.

BTW: My daughter now owns a business with a payroll of between a quarter and a half million dollars...

[DanK]

That may be the case in Canada but, I do know that in at least one U.S. University (San Diego State University - from which I received my graduate degree) when a student cannot quite make it intellectually in many majors, the Guidance Department of that University traditionally directed the student into pursuing a degree in education

Along that line, there are many people who opt for careers in education because of the large amount of time off that job allows: Winter and Spring holidays (previously named Christmas and Easter breaks) as well as all the normal holidays and a great summer vacation.

My daughter almost did that until she realized that she detested kids I wonder how many folks don't learn that until after they are teaching.

BTW: My daughter now owns a business with a payroll of between a quarter and a half million dollars...

I really don't understand why you got into this, although to be fair, it was the other Dan who started it. The OP was about two online courses. Have you looked at the courses? Do they provide some reason to disparage people who teach? I have actually read some of the materials from the second course that Brian linked. Brian labeled it only as a Google link, but the course is the well-known course by Mark Levoy at Stanford. What I have read from that course was very good; Levoy is skilled at clarifying complex topics, which is not a very common skill, and it is clear that he knows orders of magnitude more about the material than I ever will. If you want a definitive answer when we get into arguments about the math involved in optics, you can use Levoy's course, which has it all. It has been my go-to reference on more than one occasion.

Brian, I'll try to make a suggestion that is relevant to your OP. I think you may find that some of Levoy's course is much more mathematical than you want. However, if you look through it, you will probably find parts that are helpful for you.

[rpcrowe]

The nice aspects of online courses are that they can be taken anywhere. It doesn't matter what your geographic location may be. A person living like Brian does in the Philippines has the same opportunity to pursue the course as someone living in close proximity to the organization offering the course.

Additionally, you can work these courses cafeteria style, that is take what interests you and forego the rest. Unless for some reason you need the credits from the course.

I certainly wish that there had been the availability of such courses early in my photographic career.

[JBW]

I really don't understand why you got into this, although to be fair, it was the other Dan who started it. The OP was about two online courses. Have you looked at the courses? Do they provide some reason to disparage people who teach? I have actually read some of the materials from the second course that Brian linked. Brian labeled it only as a Google link, but the course is the well-known course by Mark Levoy at Stanford. What I have read from that course was very good; Levoy is skilled at clarifying complex topics, which is not a very common skill, and it is clear that he knows orders of magnitude more about the material than I ever will. If you want a definitive answer when we get into arguments about the math involved in optics, you can use Levoy's course, which has it all. It has been my go-to reference on more than one occasion.

Brian, I'll try to make a suggestion that is relevant to your OP. I think you may find that some of Levoy's course is much more mathematical than you want. However, if you look through it, you will probably find parts that are helpful for you.

I'm not sure about 'want' but it's probably way beyond my math skills. As for where this thread is going.... like many threads it has taken on a life oif it's own which is alright with me.

[JBW]

The nice aspects of online courses are that they can be taken anywhere. It doesn't matter what your geographic location may be. A person living like Brian does in the Philippines has the same opportunity to pursue the course as someone living in close proximity to the organization offering the course.

Additionally, you can work these courses cafeteria style, that is take what interests you and forego the rest. Unless for some reason you need the credits from the course.

I certainly wish that there had been the availability of such courses early in my photographic career.

I have taken advantage of these online courses for a few years now. Being able to electronically sit in the class of some of the worlds best professors is a rare privilege.