Flash position in relation to radio trigger

[rpcrowe]

I have a StreakLight 360 TTL which I dearly love and which I will use on a modified Stroboframe flash bracket and which I will trigger with a Flashpoint/Godox X-1 radio trigger mounted on either a Canon 6D2 or 7D2 camera's hotshoe. I could,if desired, also trigger this flash with a Canon off-camera cord but, preferred to remove the hotshoe mount from the flash and replace it with the supplied 1/4 x 20 screw mount. The flash is quite heavy, especially when it is wearing a modifier, and the screw mount is (IMO) more rugged than the hotshoe mount. Firing the flash using the radio trigger allows me to securely mount the flash directly to the flash bar without having the hotshoe portion of the off camera flash cord in between the flash and the camera.

The flash is mounted about six inches above the camera hotshoe - enough to give a few inches to spare with the X-1 mounted which is why I modified the Stroboflash bracket. I could not use either camera with the X-1 trigger mounted on an unmodified Stroboframe camera flip bracket, since both my 6D2 and 7D2 are equipped with battery packs. The battery pack and X-1 trigger make either camera too tall to work on the unmodified Stroboframe camera flip bracket...

In fabricating my Stroboflash bracket modification, I have noticed something strange: the trigger will not fire the flash when the flash is directly above the center of the trigger and when the camera is in the landscape position. However the X-1 trigger will fire the flash if the flash is offset about an inch or so left from the center of the trigger.

This doesn't cause me any great problem since my modified Stroboflash camera flip bracket allows me to move the flash a few inches to either right or left.

However, when the camera is in the portrait position and the X-1 trigger is directly below the center of the flash, the flash will fire from the trigger.

Like I mentioned, my modified Stroboflash camera flip bracket allows me to adjust the position of the flash quite easily - so I have no problem. However, I am wondering about the technical reasons for the flash not firing in the landscape position when it is directly above the trigger. BTW: I have tried firing the flash while hand holding in the same relative positions without being mounted on my bracket and the same results occur, so it is not interference from the bracket that is the problem.

I have also tried holding the flash unit directly above the trigger at a greater distance and have also moved the flash back and forth but the only thing that works is having the flash offset to the right or left of the trigger at least an inch or two...

My totally uneducated guess is that the radio signal does not disperse from directly above the X-1 but, does so out at a slight angle. Does that sound reasonable to someone more versed in radio signalling than I am?

[shreds]

Richard,

I am not familiar with the bracket you have, but can confirm that radio signals can sometimes be ‘blocked’ or ‘distorted’ by objects or elements, even if electrical contracts are triggering ok otherwise. Even weather conditions can play a part.

At times this can seem perverse and frustrating and is not always obvious.

We once did a model shoot near water and the triggers would not fire the flash units that were adjacent to the model on light stands, as the water in between was doing strange things with the radio signals.

In a similar way, signal blocking or deflection can cause difficulties. Obviously tethered shooting resolves such issues but is often impractical. Infra-red triggering has its own constraints too.

Godox triggers are usualy reliable and economical.

Keep us updated on any solutions you might find.

[Manfred M]

Richard - radio waves can definitely be blocked by various materials, especially metals.

I will sometimes have to move either my softbox or alter my shooting position because the aluminum speed ring shields the receiver from the radio transmission from my radio trigger.

[rpcrowe]

Ian wrote, "I am not familiar with the bracket you have"

That is not surprising Ian. I am not familiar with the bracket either That is because it is still evolving

I noticed the peculiarities of the flash positioning while I was setting up the bracket. As soon as I finish the bracket, I will post images of it in use.

I think (or I hope) that the bracket will be a pretty neat system. It evolved from a Stroboflash Camera Flip bracket with parts added from an old Stroboflash bracket that was designed for a twin lens reflex camera and fabricated from heavier duty aluminum stock...

I have had some minor surgery (trigger finger release) on my left hand which has delayed fabrication of the bracket. The procedure was really minor but it will be about two weeks before I have pain-free use of my hand. So my efforts, during the interim will be to complete the design as best I can.

I really like working with a camera flip type of bracket and a small softbox. Here is the setup that I once used...



The problems with this bracket are:

1. The camera twists on the tripod screw with which it is attached to the bracket...
2. The flash and softbox tends to rotate...
3. There is not enough space to use a battery gripped camera with either an off camera cord or an X-1 type trigger...
4. IMO the foam grip on the upright bar is not wide enough for my large hands...
5. The 3/4 inch by 1/4 inch (About 19 X 6mm) is not sturdy enough to support a large flash and modifier...

I expect to have all of these problems solved with my new bracket

Note: I could have attached the camera/lens by using the tripod collar and that would have worked fine for the 70-200mm or 100-400mm lenses but, I want to be able to use the bracket with lenses which are not equipped with tripod collars...

[rpcrowe]

I have been experimenting with the fabricated bracket using the X-1 transmitter and the AD 360 TTL flash. It seems that the top bar of the bracket may be the culprit in the crime Moving the camera and the flash to the back of their respective bars seems to have done the job

My hand feels a lot better today and I suspect that I will be able to get started on completing the bracket by mid week or so.

[inkista]

Richard, have you tried putting the X1T into "close" mode? This was added in a firmware update after initial release because of issues with triggering when the flash/trigger were close together (within 1m). On the X1T-C, you have to be at firmware v15 or later (you can check by holding down the MODE button while turning on the X1T), and you turn close mode on by holding down the TEST button while turning on the X1T. The STATUS light will blink for 2 seconds to indicate "close mode" is active. You will have to do this every time you turn the X1T on, btw. However, on the XPro, the "DIST" C.Fn setting will stick between power cycles.

[rpcrowe]

Cathy,

Thanks for the information...

I didn't even know that there was a "close mode" for the X1T Thanks for informing me about this.

I have another question. Can I use my Canon 600EX RT flash triggering it with the X1T (or do I need a 600EX RT II to do this)? I do have a receiver which I could use if needed...

If I used the 600EX RT on top of a receiver, triggering the flash with the X1T should I have the flash in slave mode?

Additionally, is there anyway to use Canon flash units like the 420EXm 430EX or 550EX with a receiver triggering them with the X1T?

How about the Canon 270EX II with a eceiver?

[dje]

Yes thanks for that Cathy, I was unaware of this "close mode" too. My X1T-S is on V15 firmware so I will update to v16 and try out this feature.

It seems that the problem is one of overload of the trigger receiver if it is too close and that in close mode the trigger transmitter power level is reduced to prevent receiver overload. Apparently on the XPro the range changes from 1-100m down to 0-30m.

The other thing is whether the receivers in the different Godox flash models have similar input sensitivity.

Dave

[inkista]

... Can I use my Canon 600EX RT flash triggering it with the X1T (or do I need a 600EX RT II to do this)? I do have a receiver which I could use if needed...

The Canon RT system and the Godox X system are incompatible with each other. So, you'd need a Godox X1R-C (aka Flashpoint R2 TTL receiver) on the foot of the 600EX-RT to control it from an X1T.

If I used the 600EX RT on top of a receiver, triggering the flash with the X1T should I have the flash in slave mode?

No. It should be set as it would be on the hotshoe of the camera, just like if you were going to use it with Yongnuo YN-622 triggers.

Additionally, is there anyway to use Canon flash units like the 420EXm 430EX or 550EX with a receiver triggering them with the X1T? How about the Canon 270EX II with a receiver?...

Again, the X1R-C is probably your best bet, but you may not have full TTL/HSS/power control over it. As with the Yongnuo YN-622 triggers, I think the camera menu control communication protocol was reverse-engineered, so there's less control with any of the Canon EX speedlites that can't communicate with the camera menu (i.e., anything older than the 580EXII and 430EXII).

Also, keep in mind that the X1R receivers cannot do the "system-switching" that the built-in triggers in Godox's lights can. That is, an X1R-C will only be a TTL/HSS trigger for a Canon-flavor transmitter unit. If you want to share the 600EX-RT on an X1R-C with an non-Canon transmitter, it will become a manual-only with power-control slave; no TTL/HSS cross-brand.

Most folks eventually just sell the older gear and invest in Godox gear for the built-in triggers. :/ I just went straight for a $110 TT685C instead of adding an X1R-C onto the foot of my 580EXII, because I wanted TTL/HSS from my MFT and Fuji cameras, too. And because built-in triggers are just more convenient than add-on ones.

If you really want something Godox-y but that also works with RT gear, Jinbei/Orlit's RT gear is sorta/kinda similar (cross-brand triggering, speedlights and studio strobes), but it's more expensive than the Godox gear, and has fewer models (only a 600EX-RT clone). But Adorama is also supporting the Jinbei stuff as Orlit-branded gear, the way they support Godox X gear as Flashpoint R2. And Phottix has an Indra that speaks RT.

[inkista]

Yes thanks for that [Kathy], I was unaware of this "close mode" too. My X1T-S is on V15 firmware so I will update to v16 and try out this feature.

Actually, you don't need to. The Sony X1T is newer than the Canon X1T, so the firmware update numbers are lower.

With the Sony version of the X1T, "close" mode was added in v13. v14 fixed an RX10 HSS issue. v15 added APP mode (where the X1T will trigger the flashes, but not change settings on them; good for using with a second transmitter unit) and added X1R-S compatibility. And v16 added a C.Fn-10 to turn on AF assist, an A7Rii issue ISO setting issue with high-speed continuous in M mode, and a C.Fn-11 to set Wireless ID (two-digit code to keep someone in the vicinity on the same channel from triggering your gear; your lights may need to be updated to do this). There was also supposed to be an exposure adjustment fix for the TTL underexposure issue with apertures wider than f/4, but most of the board reports I've seen say it doesn't work.

The version history of what fix went with which version is in the PDF file in the firmware update .rar archive download.

[dje]

Actually, you don't need to. The Sony X1T is newer than the Canon X1T, so the firmware update numbers are lower.

With the Sony version of the X1T, "close" mode was added in v13. v14 fixed an RX10 HSS issue. v15 added APP mode (where the X1T will trigger the flashes, but not change settings on them; good for using with a second transmitter unit) and added X1R-S compatibility. And v16 added a C.Fn-10 to turn on AF assist, an A7Rii issue ISO setting issue with high-speed continuous in M mode, and a C.Fn-11 to set Wireless ID (two-digit code to keep someone in the vicinity on the same channel from triggering your gear; your lights may need to be updated to do this). There was also supposed to be an exposure adjustment fix for the TTL underexposure issue with apertures wider than f/4, but most of the board reports I've seen say it doesn't work.

The version history of what fix went with which version is in the PDF file in the firmware update .rar archive download.

Thanks for the additional info Kathy and apologies for spelling your name incorrectly! - I just copied Richard. I will have a look at that PDF.

Dave

[rpcrowe]

Kathy,

I am now using my Godox/Flashpoint R2T transmitter in the "close up" mode with my Canon gear and it works quite well. Thank you for the information.

I have been fabricating/modifying some flash brackets and the "close up" capability of the transmitter has allowed me quite a bit of freedom along the lines of those fabrications/modifications...

I have picked up a TT685C flash unit which seems to be just about the equal of my Canon 600EX RT. At $110 ($ USD) it is certainly less expensive (about 25% of the Canon price) than the Canon version and it can integrate quite well with the R2T trigger without needing the addition of any extra receiver.

Although I do a lot of my work with manual flash exposure, it is certainly nice to have TTL capability when I want it. I will often use my Canon DSLR cameras in manual exposure mode and let the TTL take care of the flash exposure...

I am petty happy with the Godox/Flashpoint (et.al.) family of flash products because they integrate seamlessly across the various brand offerings, are relatively quite inexpensive and have a plethora of reasonably priced accessories available. Add a Godox S-Bracket to the mix and I have a choice of many-many more accessories.

[inkista]

I am now using my Godox/Flashpoint R2T transmitter in the "close up" mode with my Canon gear and it works quite well. Thank you for the information.

Glad it was useful. There's so much undocumented "folklore" around Godox gear, and so much of their online documentation is out of date or badly translated, it hurts my tech writer soul sometimes. The PDF manuals are kept up to date, but the "close" mode information isn't captured in them.

... I have picked up a TT685C flash unit which seems to be just about the equal of my Canon 600EX RT. At $110 ($ USD) it is certainly less expensive (about 25% of the Canon price) than the Canon version and it can integrate quite well with the R2T trigger without needing the addition of any extra receiver.

Yes, I have one as well. It also works surprisingly well as an optical wireless-eTTL slave/master unit with my 580EXII. Sometimes I'm lazy enough to want TTL with ratios. I've never felt the need for the V860II li-on version of the flash, as I'm not an all-day event shooter.

If you don't need a passthrough hotshoe on your transmitter, the XPro-C (R2 Pro) is much nicer than the X1T/R2 transmitter. The main complaints about the X1T are inadvertent settings changes from bumping it with your forehead, the small screen, the lag in making settings, and the fiddly-ness of the control wheel. All of these are improved with the XPro: tilted display, bigger screen, easier access to settings (group buttons), responsive, fewer presses to set power etc. And the TCM feature could be a game changer.

I knew the XPro was imminent when I got into the Godox gear, and if I wanted an on-camera speedlight I knew that the TT685C could also be a radio master unit, so I never got the X1T. I now own the XPro-C, Xpro-F, and XPro-O.

Although I do a lot of my work with manual flash exposure, it is certainly nice to have TTL capability when I want it. I will often use my Canon DSLR cameras in manual exposure mode and let the TTL take care of the flash exposure...

I make a case on messageboards against the folks who have been brainwashed by the Strobist (or who are film-era studio shooters) who loudly proclaim they have never needed (and therefore you will never need) TTL for off-camera work. The case is basically that up until RadioPopper hit the scene in 2008, nobody actually had TTL off-camera capability. And that without a TTL "lock" feature, then the argument about shot-to-shot inconsistency holds.

And that only changed in the last three years when Profoto added it to their Air system. The feature essentially lets you use TTL to set the power on the lights, and then lock in the setting by switching the lights to M mode, while holding the same power setting. No more losing the power setting TTL set and no more shot-to-shot variability.

And then last year Cactus supported it with the V6IIs, and Godox did with the XPro, and Nissin (if they ever release the freaking thing) will be doing so with the Air 10s. So now those of us who can't donate a kidney to afford Profoto gear can use it. So, essentially, the internet knowledge body has got less than a half year's worth of experience in with this feature. But so far, folks who use it proclaim it a game-changer. I've been really happy playing with it for my key light. I'd be happier still if I could use Canon's TTL ratios and then flip 'em with TCM to M, but Godox doesn't do TTL ratios on the XPro.

I am petty happy with the Godox/Flashpoint (et.al.) family of flash products because they integrate seamlessly across the various brand offerings, are relatively quite inexpensive and have a plethora of reasonably priced accessories available. Add a Godox S-Bracket to the mix and I have a choice of many-many more accessories.

Wait 'til you start looking at the AD200. They just added an extension head accessory. I only mention this since you indicated wanted a more powerful on-camera setup with a bracket.

[rpcrowe]

I do have the Streaklight 860 TTL and while I don't ordinatil use it on a camera bracket, I am setting up a unit that will be hefty enough to support the 860 head along with the S-7 beauty dish/octabox.

I am thinking that with the addition of a hand held reflector from below, this will be quite a neat run and gun setup for outdoor model shoots when I am not the only photographer involved.

I an still having problems trying to scroll through the groups while using the R2T transmitter. The 685TTL flash unit seems to me easier to figure out than does the R2T transmitter. Perhaps this is because there is more room on the flash to add additional buttons negating the need for one button to accomplish several functions.

[inkista]

... I am still having problems trying to scroll through the groups while using the R2T transmitter. The 685TTL flash unit seems to me easier to figure out than does the R2T transmitter. Perhaps this is because there is more room on the flash to add additional buttons negating the need for one button to accomplish several functions.

Yup. The wheel on the X1T is fiddly. Here's the flashhavoc announcement for the XproC:

http://flashhavoc.com/flashpoint-r2-...ter-announced/

And here's a Robert Hall video on Youtube, where he discusses the differences between the X1T and the Xpro. It's faintly hilarious because he's a Nikon shooter and Godox gave him a Canon XPro. But he covers most of the usability points:



I really like that the custom functions are incredibly easy to use on the Xpro, but I do lament that it doesn't have the single-pin mode, or tail syncing timing adjustment of the X1T. AND that you need a USB-C cable to upgrade its firmware, but Godox doesn't provide one in the box.

[Hanginon]

Nice! Others are giving up with Yongnuo's incompatibility with their own products!

I just checked out http://rpcrowe.smugmug.com/

Who's the genius that said dogs don't smile?