Need online print service with archival quality

[FlyingSquirrel]

I'm looking for a very specific online photo printing service:

- archival quality inks/paper (very important)
- professional quality, consistent QC (very important)
- ability to order on demand, per print, versus having to bulk order ahead (important)
- allows you to showcase and sell directly from their website, and who ship to the customer

Summary of my goals:

- I want to be able to link potential customers to a site where they can view some of my images, and then directly order archival prints of consistent high quality, which are then sent automatically to the customer (essentially, a totally "hands off" operation).

I don't like the idea of a customer getting prints without me seeing each print first to confirm colors and quality, BUT I am willing to go that route because it's the only viable option for me right now with my limited funds and extremely busy schedule.

Thanks for any advice

[Donald]

I don't think you'll find a printing service that offers a website onto which you present images for order. What you can find is a website provider; i.e, SmugMug, where you can present your images and offer them for sale. SmugMug has arrangement with, I think, 4 printers around the world and one of them will take the order from your SmugMug website.

[DanK]

I rarely use a lab, but none of the ones I have purchased from use pigment-ink printers. My vague recollection is that they used dye-sublimation, but I am not certain, and I don't know how they stack up in terms of durability.

[Manfred M]

I am willing to go that route because it's the only viable option for me right now with my limited funds and extremely busy schedule.

Either you want to be in the business or not. Extremely busy tends to suggest that you are either not in a position to run your business properly or unwilling to put in the time and effort to be successful. Neither bode well for what you say you are planning to do.

The only printers that will meet your needs for archival inks and quality are going to be the smaller "fine art" print shops who are willing to use archival papers (lignin free; preferably pH buffered cotton rag or possibly alpha cellulose papers) who use OEM inks. Optical Brightening Agent (OBA) free archival papers are viewed as having longer life than paper that incorporate OBAs.

The mass production printers used by some of the large commercial photo sites tend to use chromogenic print, dye sublimation or digital presses; none of which are known for archival quality. Non-OEM continuous ink systems should also be viewed as being suspect from an archival quality standpoint.

Bottom line is that if you want to be in the business, you need to set yourself up in it properly and provide your customers with the level of support that a high-end, archival print suggests. This also suggests that you will need to build and manage your own website to service these customers, rather than trying to subcontract everything out to other suppliers.

[Donald]

I agree with Manfred, except that the print company used by SmugMug in the UK is Loxley, who print for a number of professionals ... and me now and again. They are award winners amongst photographers.

[FlyingSquirrel]

Thanks, everyone, I appreciate your valuable knowledge and advice

Manfred, I respect your opinion, and for the most part I agree with it. My situation is different, however, in that what I'm trying to do isn't what you think I'm trying to do.

I am not trying to be a professional photographer, and I'm not trying to make selling prints a big part of my goals. The prints I want to offer are actually just one product option which is a small part of a different business I'm doing, which has nothing to do with photography (instead it has to do with some other hobby I have). That business is in a totally different industry, yet I'm using photographic images as part of my marketing and brand, and therefore I have some fine art photos which have potential for income. I realize this means that I have two target markets / audiences, but in many cases in the industry I am referring to, both markets overlap (I know this because I've seen evidence of it).

In other words, you lack the big picture of what I'm going for. However, within the context of my original post, your answer is totally relevant and valid, and back in the day when my goal was to be a fine art nature photographer, I felt exactly the same way as you do. My goals have changed though.

[FlyingSquirrel]

Adding to my other thoughts...and based on your advice...I am starting to consider that maybe I will need to settle for "less than archival quality". The extra-high standards I had in mind are probably a remnant of my past when I really wanted to be a fine art nature photographer. Since what I'm trying to do now is a whole different ball game, I think I will need to adjust my standards and go with "good enough" quality - and of course have much lower prices and expectations as they apply to the prints and services. That means that some of the more common online sites may be a viable option.

[DanK]

Adding to my other thoughts...and based on your advice...I am starting to consider that maybe I will need to settle for "less than archival quality".

I think people are using the term differently. Most often, when discussing photographic prints, people use "archival quality" to refer to how long the print will last without deteriorating (colors fading, OBAs decomposing and creating yellowish areas, etc.). AFAIK, the term is not generally used to refer to the quality of the initial print. For example, the prints produced by my Canon Pro-100 would not be considered "archival" by most people (including me) because it uses dye-based inks, which fade more quickly than pigment inks. However, hot off the press, they are every bit as good--and some would say slightly better--than many archival pigment-ink prints.

So if you are content with images that will fade in several decades, you can forget about "archival" printing. The dye-sublimation prints I have received from Bay Photo (one of Smugmug's higher-end labs, though I don't use it through Smugmug) have been very good.

[Manfred M]

Matthew - we can only attempt to answer the question you have asked in conjunction with the nature of this site. We can't even begin to guess at what you are planning, so the answers give reflect this.

[Manfred M]

I think people are using the term differently. Most often, when discussing photographic prints, people use "archival quality" to refer to how long the print will last without deteriorating (colors fading, OBAs decomposing and creating yellowish areas, etc.). AFAIK, the term is not generally used to refer to the quality of the initial print. For example, the prints produced by my Canon Pro-100 would not be considered "archival" by most people (including me) because it uses dye-based inks, which fade more quickly than pigment inks. However, hot off the press, they are every bit as good--and some would say slightly better--than many archival pigment-ink prints.

So if you are content with images that will fade in several decades, you can forget about "archival" printing. The dye-sublimation prints I have received from Bay Photo (one of Smugmug's higher-end labs, though I don't use it through Smugmug) have been very good.

Dan - what you write is correct, to a point. When we look at a print, we cannot tell what ink / process was used to create it, but that is only half of the story.

What we do notice is the substrate used to print on. The photo paper suppliers have different quality papers ranging from the ordinary paper, through basic photo papers to some of the heavy weight and beautifully textured / finished papers. This last category is where most high end images are printed on to give the buyer the look and feel of expensive, fine art or high quality portraiture. These also tend to be the archival grade papers.

[DanK]

Dan - what you write is correct, to a point. When we look at a print, we cannot tell what ink / process was used to create it, but that is only half of the story.

What we do notice is the substrate used to print on. The photo paper suppliers have different quality papers ranging from the ordinary paper, through basic photo papers to some of the heavy weight and beautifully textured / finished papers. This last category is where most high end images are printed on to give the buyer the look and feel of expensive, fine art or high quality portraiture. These also tend to be the archival grade papers.

I understand, but that't not the point I was making. I have printed on papers of that sort with my dye-based printer, but that didn't give me archival prints. My point was just that "archival" usually refers to durability, and I wanted to point that out to Matthew so that he could clarify whether he was concerned with durability or print quality. I was guessing the latter, from his OP, but the responses (including mine) were about the former because of his use of the term "archival."

[Manfred M]

I understand, but that't not the point I was making. I have printed on papers of that sort with my dye-based printer, but that didn't give me archival prints. My point was just that "archival" usually refers to durability, and I wanted to point that out to Matthew so that he could clarify whether he was concerned with durability or print quality. I was guessing the latter, from his OP, but the responses (including mine) were about the former because of his use of the term "archival."

I understood your point Dan. I was merely suggesting that even if he is not using "archival" in the sense of longevity, but rather print quality, the paper used has a direct bearing on the perception of quality. The grade "A" papers, like the cotton rags or barytas do give a perception of higher quality, regardless of how the print was made. These papers also tend to be archival quality in the sense that these papers do not deteriorate as quickly as some of the less expensive paper stock because they contain no lignin and tend to be pH buffered.

[FlyingSquirrel]

Matthew - we can only attempt to answer the question you have asked in conjunction with the nature of this site. We can't even begin to guess at what you are planning, so the answers give reflect this.

Of course, that is totally understandable. That is why I shared a bit more information after realizing that I should have provided more context from the beginning. I also want to point out that I in no way meant to diminish your excellent advice. I always appreciate the knowledge and value that you contribute.

[FlyingSquirrel]

My point was just that "archival" usually refers to durability, and I wanted to point that out to Matthew so that he could clarify whether he was concerned with durability or print quality. I was guessing the latter, from his OP, but the responses (including mine) were about the former because of his use of the term "archival."

Thanks Dan, and Manfred, for your great information. Dan, I guess I was referring to both print quality and durability.

So if you are content with images that will fade in several decades, you can forget about "archival" printing

I wasn't aware that there were printing methods available that are not "archival" but which still last decades. If that is the case, and the quality can be excellent as well, then I would definitely be satisfied with those options. I will need to learn more about the specific options available and if they are available from some of the online sites I am looking at. One option I'm considering, which someone suggested via direct message, is "Fine Art America" which offers all of the services I was looking for in my OP

[Manfred M]

I wasn't aware that there were printing methods available that are not "archival" but which still last decades. If that is the case, and the quality can be excellent as well, then I would definitely be satisfied with those options. I will need to learn more about the specific options available and if they are available from some of the online sites I am looking at. One option I'm considering, which someone suggested via direct message, is "Fine Art America" which offers all of the services I was looking for in my OP

There are several factors in play when it comes to "archival" life:

1. Inexpensive papers contain lignin. This is what gives wood the brown colour. In the paper making process, this is masked through chemical actions, but over time these break down and the paper yellows and becomes brittle. Archival papers contain no lignin. Cheap papers are often acidic, which breaks down the paper fibers over time; archival papers are neutral to slightly basic to prevent this from happening.

2. Dye based inks, as well as dye sublimation and chromogenic create colours using complex organic molecules. These break down when they are hit by UV light and / or chemical contaminants in the air. Pigment based inks are made much as pigments always have, by grinding up minerals. These tend to be very stable over long periods of time.

3. Storage and print finishing extend print life. Coatings that seal the paper surface to prevent UV rays from penetrating the image and keep chemical contaminants away (framing behind UV resistant glass) extend print life. Hanging them in places where UV is avoided / reduced (north facing walls away from direct sunlight, for example) also helps extend the life. Look at how pictures are displayed in museums and galleries and you get the idea.

[FlyingSquirrel]

Thank you, Manfred,
That's the most succinct, clear, summary I've ever read on this topic.
Very helpful!

[george013]

It's still confusing me.

I've a HP C309a, using 5 cartridges, cyan,magenta,yellow black and photo black.

From http://store.hp.com/UKStore/Merch/Pr...E&opt=&sel=SUP

Ink types Pigment-based (black), dye-based (cyan, magenta, yellow)

From https://store.hp.com/UKStore/Merch/P...E&opt=&sel=SUP photo black

Ink types Dye-based

Photoblack is not black but gray.

So it seems HP is using both ink types in one printer. And both types are not waterproof. I must clean my print heads with warm water.

George

[DanK]

It's still confusing me.

I've a HP C309a, using 5 cartridges, cyan,magenta,yellow black and photo black.

From http://store.hp.com/UKStore/Merch/Pr...E&opt=&sel=SUP


From https://store.hp.com/UKStore/Merch/P...E&opt=&sel=SUP photo black

Photoblack is not black but gray.

So it seems HP is using both ink types in one printer. And both types are not waterproof. I must clean my print heads with warm water.

George

This is because yours is a multifunction printer, not a dedicated photo printer. Multifunction printers often have dye inks for photos and pigment black ink for plain text on printer/copy paper. This is because the pigment ink is more durable and spreads less on the matte surface of the cheap paper.

Some multifunction printers have both dye and pigment blacks.

[Manfred M]

George - At this point, the only companies that make ink jet printers across the board for the consumer to pro markets are Canon and Epson. HP makes a few photo printers, but these are the high end wide carriage models only, that take roll paper. This is a shame because the HP pigment based inks are particularly durable from an archival life standpoint.

Currently, the all ink jet photo printers use pigment based inks and have more than three coloured inks.

[george013]

George - At this point, the only companies that make ink jet printers across the board for the consumer to pro markets are Canon and Epson. HP makes a few photo printers, but these are the high end wide carriage models only, that take roll paper. This is a shame because the HP pigment based inks are particularly durable from an archival life standpoint.

Currently, the all ink jet photo printers use pigment based inks and have more than three coloured inks.

It's still strange that I've to dig in the specs so deep to find out what ink is used.
HP started using pigment ink in the popular models too. https://store.hp.com/us/en/vwa/inkje...prnttyp=InkJet
Some of them have only pigment black, others have 4 pigment based cartridges. Maybe there're also with 5, extra black, colors. You've to open the specs.
For me HP is important for it has a PCL driver standard installed.

George