Most Powerful HSS Speedlight

[Hanginon]

I have a rig similar to what rpcrowe has described in his excellent "Evolution of a Flash Bracket" thread.

Outdoors in the bright sun, when using High Speed Sync and the similar small soft box, sometimes the flash simply isn't producing enough light. So...

Who makes the most powerful, self contained, camera mounted HSS flash? It seems like all of them that run on four 1.5V AA batteries max out at a GN of around 60 for conventional sync.

Guide numbers are really all over the place anyway - I'm talking about just dumping as much energy as possible, I don't care about recycling time. Kit is Canon.

[Manfred M]

Small flash (a.k.a. speedlights) are really not designed to put out all that much power. Metz and Nissin do make small flash in that range of power output. I have owned Metz units, but not any Nissin ones. I'm not sure what the Chinese manufacturers turn out and I'm not sure on how well they do on HSS.

You are looking at getting into battery operated portable studio flash for that level of light output; for instance my Godox Witstro AD-360 has a GN of 80 at ISO 100. I have the original version and am not sure if the newer ones can handle HSS when mounted on the camera; they certainly can with an appropriate radio trigger.

http://www.godox.com/EN/Products_Cam...ble_Flash.html

While it has a hot shoe, I would hate to carry it around mounted on the camera as it is getting close to weighing 2 lbs.

Getting into even more power is going to be getting into studio lights running on battery packs. Most of these will not do HSS.

If you are using a softbox (which will cut back the light output), have you considered using a light stand and getting the flash just out of range of the camera frame to get more light on your subject. Frankly, I would not bother with a softbox in bright light outdoor conditions, especially with a speedlight.

More information on exactly what you are trying to achieve would be useful. Don't forget, you are going to drop at least a couple of stops of light by going to HSS, so the GN you quote is not achievable in that shooting mode.

[Shadowman]

Fred,

Sounds like you want to cover distance as well as overall intensity, are you shooting in controlled environments, could you place speedlights at different intervals to the subject and remotely trigger?

[William W]

. . . Outdoors in the bright sun, when using High Speed Sync and the similar small soft box, sometimes the flash simply isn't producing enough light. So...

Who makes the most powerful, self contained, camera mounted HSS flash? . . . I'm talking about just dumping as much energy as possible, I don't care about recycling time. Kit is Canon.

Have a look at the Elinchrom ELB 500 TTL. These are sensational units.

However, (and you might have already exhausted this thought process) I suggest that you describe here, in this conversation, the shooting scenarios that have made you conclude that you NEED High Speed Sync: there may be other working solutions which you have not considered.

WW

[rpcrowe]

I suspect that when we are talking about a guide number of 60 (meters) for many of the recent issue hotshoe flashes and a guide number of 80 (meters) for the Godox/Wistro/Molight/Streaklight 360 we are actually talking apples and oranges.

The 60 guide number recommended for many of the hotshoe flashes, such as the Canon 600EX RT, is calculated with the hotshoe flash being set to a focal length of 200mm while there is no focusing available or needed for the 360 type units - they will cover the field of view of a 35mm lens with the standard 7 inch reflector.

The guide number at a 35mm focal length for the Canon 600EX RT is actually far lower than 60. Neil Van Niekerk (who knows his way around flashes) states that the GN for the 600EX RT is actually 36 (meters) if you want to cover the field of view of a 35mm lens on a full frame camera
https://neilvn.com/tangents/tutorial...of-your-flash/

So, when shooting at 10 meters, the 600EX RT f/stop would be f/3.6 while the 360 unit f/stop would be f/8 that's right about a two and a half stop difference... More considerable than you would suspect if you were just viewing the manufacturer's guide number recommendations of 60 and 80 respectively...

BTW: when I am shooting outdoors and using the small softbox, I am usually shooting with my flash very close to the subject and just using the flash for fill - usually at a stop or two below the ambient light. I am mostly using the flash to fill in shadows below the eyebrows and beneath the chin as well as filling in shadows below hat brims...

This image was shot using HSS at ISO 320, F/8 at 1/320 second (sync speed of my Canon 7D2 is 1/250 second)

[Hanginon]

I suspect that when we are talking about a guide number of 60 (meters) for many of the recent issue hotshoe flashes and a guide number of 80 (meters) for the Godox/Wistro/Molight/Streaklight 360 we are actually talking apples and oranges.

Exactly, which is why I said "Guide numbers are really all over the place anyway". Nothing is standardized. Your portrait* example is also what I'm talking about - "I am usually shooting with my flash very close to the subject and just using the flash for fill" - as you start to move back, you quickly run out of light.

I'm aware of the "separate power pack models", as well as the "keep it close on a light stand" solution.

I personally have a Nikon SB-800, a Sigma EF-530DG Super, and a couple of SunPak Auto 433's. The Sigma and the SunPaks have been modified to hold a fifth battery, just like the SB-800, so even though I use rechargeable batteries, they're getting a true 6 volts.

I've run my own tests (with the zoom's of the Nikon and Sigma at their lowest setting) for power. Sigma #3, Nikon #2, ancient Sunpak Auto 433 #1, but all very close - which makes me believe it's a limitation of the 5 AA battery power, and a small enclosed flash tube (heat dissipation). The Laws of Physics.

Only the Sigma has HSS with my Canon's - I'd like to get a newer, more powerful one, which prompted my question - who has the most powerful, self contained, hot shoe, HSS speedlight...and hopefully based on real world experience, not bogus GN advertising numbers. Maybe there aren't any.

*Nice!! Civil War re-enactment?

[Manfred M]

I wouldn't call the guide numbers bogus, but they do require the user to understand how they are calculated and include lens focal length in how they are determined. The guide number is an output measurement and does depend on how the light is output, so if you are using a softbox, this will drop the GN.

That being said, the real limitation on small flash is the power supply; i.e. the AA batteries you put into the flash. Flash power is related to three factors; the voltage, the current draw and the duration of the flash . If you look at studio flash units, these are generally rated on the power that they draw and these are rated in W-s.

AA batteries nominally have a voltage of 1.5V and, for example, the popular rechargeable Panasonic Eneloop batteries can deliver 2000 mAH. If you look at the Godox flash I mentioned in #2, it's battery delivers 11.1V and 4500 mAH (effectively over four times the output of a Speedlight. The Elinchrom ELB 500 TTL that Bill mentions in #4 delivers even more power.

If you add an external battery pack, these do not increase the voltage, but rather the current that can be delivered, so cycle time will decrease, but the power output will not. The speedlights are designed around the power that a AA can deliver, so the capacitor used to fire the flash tube is limited by this design factor. Adding more batteries in series is not going to overcome the charge that the capacitor can hold; all you are doing by applying an over-voltage is to charge it up more quickly; add too much additional voltage and you risk damaging the flash circuitry, without any output power gain.

Nicely said, if you need more power, you are going to have to step up to something larger than a speedlight.

[xpatUSA]

That being said, the real limitation on small flash is the power supply; i.e. the AA batteries you put into the flash. Flash power is related to three factors; the voltage, the current draw and the duration of the flash . If you look at studio flash units, these are generally rated on the power that they draw and these are rated in W-s.

AA batteries nominally have a voltage of 1.5V and, for example, the popular rechargeable Panasonic Eneloop batteries can deliver 2000 mAH. If you look at the Godox flash I mentioned in #2, it's battery delivers 11.1V and 4500 mAH (effectively over four times the output of a Speedlight. The Elinchrom ELB 500 TTL that Bill mentions in #4 delivers even more power.

If you add an external battery pack, these do not increase the voltage, but rather the current that can be delivered, so cycle time will decrease, but the power output will not. The speedlights are designed around the power that a AA can deliver, so the capacitor used to fire the flash tube is limited by this design factor. Adding more batteries in series is not going to overcome the charge that the capacitor can hold; all you are doing by applying an over-voltage is to charge it up more quickly; add too much additional voltage and you risk damaging the flash circuitry, without any output power gain.

"Adding more batteries in series is not going to overcome the charge that the capacitor can hold" ...

So, if I understand correctly, the additional batteries do not add to charge on the capacitor (via Q = CV)? And therefore there is no additional energy pulsed through the flash tube when fired?

[Manfred M]

"Adding more batteries in series is not going to overcome the charge that the capacitor can hold" ...

So, if I understand correctly, the additional batteries do not add to charge on the capacitor (via Q = CV)? And therefore there is no additional energy pulsed through the flash tube when fired?

That is my understanding. On the other hand, you are the electrical engineer, so I should be asking you this question.

[Hanginon]

"Adding more batteries in series is not going to overcome the charge that the capacitor can hold" ...

So, if I understand correctly, the additional batteries do not add to charge on the capacitor (via Q = CV)? And therefore there is no additional energy pulsed through the flash tube when fired?

Manfred is correct. Adding the fifth rechargeable battery, a la SB-800, doesn't increase power, just shortens recycling time.
Older flashes were designed for four 1.5V AA batteries = 6 volts. Rechargeable batteries are nominally 1.2 volts, 5 of them in series equals 6 volts.

[Manfred M]

Manfred is correct. Adding the fifth rechargeable battery, a la SB-800, doesn't increase power, just shortens recycling time.
Older flashes were designed for four 1.5V AA batteries = 6 volts. Rechargeable batteries are nominally 1.2 volts, 5 of them in series equals 6 volts.

Yes and no. If the batteries are placed in series, then the voltage output is what you write (i.e. 6V nominally). If they are wired in parallel, then their output remains at 1.5 V. Two in series and two in parallel would give you 3V.

[rpcrowe]

AFAIK: The Flashpoint, Godox. etc. 360 model flash is probably the most powerful "hotshoe type" flash available with HSS capability. But, despite that unit using a separate battery pack, the flash head is still pretty heavy. Although it comes with a hotshoe, I would not trust carrying around that unit mounted to the hotshoe of a camera. That connection is just too delicate and either the hotshoe on the camera or that on the flash could easily be damaged.

However, my Flashpoint 360 TTL unit (which is the one I am familiar with) comes with another bottom plate which has a 1/4 x 20 screw mount. Switching the plate from hotshoe to screw mount is accomplished simply by removing four small screws and reattaching the screw plate...

If you need a powerful flash and also need the mobility that a hotshoe mounted flash would give you, I suggest that you might use a 360 TTL on a bracket. Of course, you could add any type modifier to this flash.



My 360 TTL flash is mounted to the top bar of this DIY rig by mounting an Arca compatible clamp (upside down) to the 1/4 x 20 screw slot of the flash unit. I have a long (so I can adjust the position of the flash) Arca Compatible plate mounted on top of the bracket arm. I could have mounted the flash directly to the bracket arm with a 1/4 x 20 screw but, this way I can adjust the position of the flash. I can also change flashes because I have another clamp with a cold shoe mounted. Actually I could mount two hotshoe type flashes in this way. I have a second clamp with a cold shoe mounted.

If I need a vertical configuration, I simply use the camera flip mechanism cannibalized from my Stroboflash Camera Flip Flash Bracket. I trigger the flash with a Flashpoint R2T trigger.



The wooden handle is cannibalized from another old Stroboflash bracket. Not a requirement but comfortable to use...

The really nice thing about the 360 setup is that it is relatively inexpensive - at least in comparison to a Canon 600EX RT flash. The Flashpoint 360 TTL with battery pack and cord is running $298 (USD) from Adorama. The trigger will set you back about fifty more bucks. So the total is about $350 USD, in comparison to the nearly $500 (USD) that the Canon 600EX RT might cost.

There are a load of accessories for the 360 Type flash units. One I especially like is a "Y" cord which will allow you to draw power from both outlets of the battery making the recharge time far shorter.

As with almost all of the ancillary equipment for the 360 flash units, the Y cord is quite inexpensive and can be had from $12 to $15 USD depending on where you shop on the Internet...

https://www.fomito.shop/products/god...t=893029253164

If you needed a bit more power, you could use one of the Godox hotshoe flashes as a trigger and add its power to the flash. That would eliminate the camera flip capability...

I have not completed this DIY unit. There are still a few things I need to do to complete it, including a coat of paint. However, since this might interest you, I just shot a couple of images using the setup with which I photograph my dogs...

[Hanginon]

That Godox/Flashpoint 360 looks excellent. Have you ever tried it bare bulb inside your small softbox?

[Manfred M]

That Godox/Flashpoint 360 looks excellent. Have you ever tried it bare bulb inside your small softbox?

This shot was taken with my Godox Witstro AD360 and a Godox softbox with the bare bulb configuration.



It was a very bright day and I used the flash to overpower the sunlight. The model was backlit. You can see the second model in the background with no flash hitting him. Note - I used a 110cm octabox; I tend to like larger light sources as the quality of the light is better. I tend to have my light sitting very close to the subject.

[rpcrowe]

Yes, I try to always use the softboxes with the bare bulb configuration if I have the opportunity. IMO, trying to modify the harsh spectral light from the small reflector of a hotshoe flash by using a softbox is like trying to brew tea starting with ice cubes. You can do it, but it certainly is not the most efficient way to make a cup. However, I do use a small softbox to modify the hotshoe flash occasionally. I once used a tissue in front of the reflector. Now, when I use the small softbox with the hotshoe flash, I manually set the flash to the widest focal length and also place the built-in diffusion flipper over the flash. That way, I am starting from the most diffused light I can get from that small flash. Since I am just using this flash for some fill and because I am shooting very close to the subject - power loss is no great consideration.

And, along with what Manfred stated, I use softboxes and umbrellas very close to my subject to achieve the softest light possible. I have a Godox Beauty Dish/Octabox and a 24x24 inch softbox. They are small but, these are pretty handy when there is a bit of wind blowing.

Here on the West Coast, we often get relatively stiff breezes during the late afternoon/early evening (the Golden Hour). I am in the market for a larger modifier to use when the wind allows. I am seriously considering a six or seven foot parabolic umbrella in silver with a diffusion cover for the front. Large softboxes can be a PITA to set up; large umbrellas are easier to work with...

I have a very large Chimera softbox (4 foot x 6 foot) that I picked up with a 600 WS Sunpak monolight (bare bulb capable) from one of my photo club members. It needs a/c power. Unfortunately, although I have not tried it, I doubt that the battery operated 360 TTL has enough power to fill that softbox.

Another accessory that I found on sale one day at the Cheetah Stand website is the Godox S17 wide angle diffuser for the 360 TTL. I have not had the opportunity to use this in real life shooting but, in tests I think that it might just be an alternative for when I cannot use a softbox or umbrella. Cheetah Stand is another banding of Godox products. I had a gift card for fifteen dollars and this modifier was on sale for twelve dollars - so I snapped it up.
https://www.cheetahstand.com/product-p/cl-mushroom.htm

[inkista]

While not as powerful as the AD360 II, there's also the newer AD200 which is more compact and modular and doesn't require cabling to a battery pack. And while it doesn't have a flash foot, also does TTL/HSS via a built-in radio transceiver, and can be configured to be either fresnel or bare bulb, and has accessories like an extension head and dual-bracket and can do things like ALT/MASK (where two units can alternately fire to halve recycling), that the AD360 cannot. It's also about US$300.

Main complaint I've heard is that the LED isn't bright enough to easily read in full sun.

[rpcrowe]

Kathy,

I first saw the AD200 when I was on a shoot in Balboa Park. One of the photographers used a AD200 on a stand. He was really pretty limited as we were doing "run and gun" shooting. However, I liked the idea of a more powerful flash than my Canon 600EX RT.

The guy shooting with the AD200 was using a four wheeled metal garden type cart to carry around his gear. While it was handy not to have to carry his equipment, it was pretty unhandy to need to stop every time he wanted to shoot and then set up his light.

However, this shoot lead me along this path:

I knew that I wanted a more powerful battery operated flash...
and
I knew that I wanted a way to carry the gear other than lugging it on my back...

Adorama advertised "open box" Flashpoint 360 TTL kit including the flash head, the battery and charger and the battery to flash cord. I thought that was a good price and since my car has recently been paid off - I decided to give myself a present of the 360 TTL kit...

I was doing some research on a convenient way to carry my gear on shoots and saw several Internet sites describing the conversion of a push golf cart to a photo lighting cart.

Here's an example:
https://saycheese800.wordpress.com/2...bruce-chester/

I found a great golf cart on Friday and paid the lady thirty five bucks for it (it had cost her $238 when she bought it new). I am examining it over and over trying to decide the best conversion process.

Eventually it will have a built-in 8 foot light stand and I will be able to move it from place to place without having to break down the stand. Although, I will lower the stand to its minimum height while moving around.

I have a couple of camera bags which I will attach to this unit to carry extra gear and I will have a tripod and an extra light stand strapped to the rig and will include a heavy set of weights (originally built to anchor down folding canopies) to keep the rig from blowing over.

I am looking forward to not stripping my gear list to the bare bones because I don't want to carry the weight...

The rig even has a shade (not a shooting) umbrella and a seat included...

I am anxious to see how this unit will look and work.