Canon R Camera

[Hanginon]

Nikon's newest glass with internal motors can be used (with an adapter) on Z's and Sony's.
Canon EF glass can be used (with an adapter) on R's and Sony's
Panasonic is also rumored to have a FF mirror less coming, and I bet it will be able to use other brands glass (with an adapter), just like Sony.

The world is moving towards "no moving parts" - a camera body that is really just a computer tied to an imaging sensor - and in theory (if the firmware is coded properly) should be able to use any lens that has it's own focusing mechanism (with the appropriate adapter).

It will be like the FF version of micro 4/3's, and IMHO long term will kill off APS-C and DX. Fuji is smart staying out of it.

[DanK]

The world is moving towards "no moving parts" - a camera body that is really just a computer tied to an imaging sensor - and in theory (if the firmware is coded properly) should be able to use any lens that has it's own focusing mechanism (with the appropriate adapter).

I take your point, but I think fewer moving but not no moving parts, at least not with ILCs. You need moving parts in the body to shut down the aperture in the lens when you shoot. Some mirrorless cameras have mechanical as well as electronic shutters. any IBIS requires moving parts.

It will be like the FF version of micro 4/3's, and IMHO long term will kill off APS-C and DX. Fuji is smart staying out of it.

Certainly could be the case, but why? I can see marketing reasons, but other than that, why? The gains from mirrorless are at least the same for APS-C, and the downsides are identical.

[Hanginon]

Certainly could be the case, but why? I can see marketing reasons, but other than that, why? The gains from mirrorless are at least the same for APS-C, and the downsides are identical.

I don't think that format can take erosion from the top (same size & weight FF mirror less) and from the bottom (cell phones) at the same time...then the traditional "two lens + body" loss leader kit, really designed to bring newbies into "their system", is going to disappear from the big box stores - probably the real reason Nikon and Canon have delayed this until Sony forced their hand. I don't think either company can survive on the Professional market alone.

[DanK]

I don't think that format can take erosion from the top (same size & weight FF mirror less) and from the bottom (cell phones) at the same time...then the traditional "two lens + body" loss leader kit, really designed to bring newbies into "their system", is going to disappear from the big box stores - probably the real reason Nikon and Canon have delayed this. I don't think either company can survive on the Professional market alone.

Maybe. But Canon recently introduced an APS-C mirrorless (M5) explicitly to capture people who are eager to move up from smartphones.

(same size & weight FF mirror less

But they are not. APS-C bodies are lighter and smaller, and in combination with a lens with equivalent AOV, far lighter and smaller. That is true regardless of the presence of a mirror. I use both formats, and it is a very noticeable difference even with walk around lenses like a 24-105 (or the closest EF-S equivalent, the EF-S 15-85). That's a principal reason people use MFTs, despite the drawbacks of a considerably smaller sensor.

[pnodrog]

Nikon's newest glass with internal motors can be used (with an adapter) on Z's and Sony's.
Canon EF glass can be used (with an adapter) on R's and Sony's
Panasonic is also rumored to have a FF mirror less coming, and I bet it will be able to use other brands glass (with an adapter), just like Sony.

The world is moving towards "no moving parts" - a camera body that is really just a computer tied to an imaging sensor - and in theory (if the firmware is coded properly) should be able to use any lens that has it's own focusing mechanism (with the appropriate adapter).

It will be like the FF version of micro 4/3's, and IMHO long term will kill off APS-C and DX. Fuji is smart staying out of it.

From a distance of flange to focal plane perspective any lens that can be adapted to a Sony E mount should also be able to be adapted to the Nikon Z mount. So Canon EF glass should be able to be adapted to a Nikon Z mount.

I assume some third party manufacturer is working on an EF to Z adapter right now....

[rpcrowe]

Folks will likely say that the Canon R camera has no eye focus. However, the face detect of my 6D2 locks in on the eyes a vast majority of the time and I assume that the R camera will have the same capability.

That said, I am sure that I would prefer the Sony A7iii over either the Nikon Z or the Canon R cameras.

We know the capability of the A7iii but, can only make assumptions, based on specs, about the Canon R camera.

[chaman]

Not sure if you all have seen this

https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/p...m/eos-r-camera

[rpcrowe]

Very interesting Oscar... I like

1. the touch screen focus point selection when using the eye level viewfinder (however, I have heard that this is not all that responsive)
2. the focus peaking
3. the eye AF (although my 6D2 seems to get the eyes in focus when using face detect)

I don't like:

1. lack of IBIS
2. auto focus handling when in servo AF mode with burst

[Hanginon]

This is a quote from Rockwell's site -

"but you can't order it before 12:01 AM EDT Wednesday 12 September 2018"

If this is true, unlike Nikon, Canon has these things ready to go!

[pnodrog]

This is a quote from Rockwell's site -

"but you can't order it before 12:01 AM EDT Wednesday 12 September 2018"

If this is true, unlike Nikon, Canon has these things ready to go!

What is the logic behind this conclusion? Is there a link between ordering and delivery the I am unaware of?

Canon: "The camera will be available for $2,299 body-only or $3,399 with the 24-105mm lens in late October, with preorders starting September 12th".

Nikon were very clear about the delivery dates and have already apologized for the fact that demand is greater than the 20,000 per month they can manufacture.

Nikon: “We will work to fulfill customer demand as quickly as possible and will be shipping product as scheduled beginning September 27.”


It remains to be seen how demand and delivery works out for either company but at this stage the preorders to delivery time is similar for both companies...

[Manfred M]

This is a quote from Rockwell's site -

"but you can't order it before 12:01 AM EDT Wednesday 12 September 2018"

If this is true, unlike Nikon, Canon has these things ready to go!

Rockwell once again shows how little he understands about new product introduction. I spent a number of years in a role where I was responsible for getting new products into production and helping the production group hit the new target introduction date. These were not “paper launches” we see in some industries, but rather having the product in the warehouse ready to ship to retailers.

One thing that people forget is that the strongest demand for new products occurs at launch, and a significant percentage of annual sales occur when the new product starts shipping. The sales and marketing groups are responsible for forecasting both launch and ongoing sales quantities and the process engineering groups need to figure out the most cost effective way of producing the required number of units given the limitations at the production facilities (camera manufacturers cannot dedicate all their resources to producing less the new product, but must also produce all the other products that come out of the factory). This means that only so many units can be produced in a day and often there is no way of increasing production as additional tooling, production machines and skilled workers would be needed throughout the supply chain; including all the suppliers who supply raw materials and sub assemblies to the factory.

I can guarntee that both Nikon and Canon have been producing these cameras and lenses for some time now, filling warehouses in Japan as well as shipping units to the warehouses of national distributors so that they are available for product launch. I have no inside knowledge as to launch volumes from either company, but Nikon appears to have acknowledged that they have more pre-orders from their national distributors than they planned for and cameras need to be in place in these countries so that they can be ordered by individual consumers.

Canon has not given an indication that they will have enough product on hand and this can tell us a couple of things. One is that they went into production earlier and their product pipeline is in better shape than Nikon’s. It can also mean that their pre-orders are below plan and the camera is not selling as well as was hoped and their is more product in the warehouses around the world than will be required on the launch date. Several other things could be happening too.

Bottom line is we will know a lot more about how well the products are moving in the next few weeks.

[Hanginon]

What is the logic behind this conclusion? Is there a link between ordering and delivery the I am unaware of?

It was based on this, again from Rockwell's site -

"If history teaches us anything, it is that Canon will actually have cameras to sell, while we will be waiting for months or years to get our Z7s and Z6s, just as tons of people who ordered last year's Nikon D850s are still waiting. It was like this for Nikon who couldn't ship enough F4s in the 1980s, couldn't ship enough 80-400mm VR in the 1990s, couldn't ship the D100 or D200 or 18-200mm VR or D300 in the 2000s, and can't ship most of their hottest cameras today."

[rpcrowe]

After reading the specs and watching the reviews from folks who have actually used either the Canon R or the Nikon Z models. I don't believe that I would think about purchasing either one of these cameras. Each is missing some very important attributes.

Nikon and Canon fanboys will probably buy one of these cameas, no matter what they are lacking.

However, I learned my lesson with the 6D2. Just because a camera has a Canon logo doesn't make it a great camera. I think that (again from the specs and from initial reports) Canikon have dropped the proverbial balls when it comes to these mirrorless cameras.

I was hoping that the Canon R would offer a lot more, including IBIS...

IMO (again from specs and from reviews) Sony has come out with a line of cameras that are far more advanced and have far more important features than the Canikon R/Z cameras.

Even the crop format A6500 (at far less than one thousand U.S. Dollars used here in the USA) really has more on the table than either of the R/Z cameras and, when you consider the full-frame A7iii which is less expensive than either Canikon model - the R/Z cameras have been totally checkmated by Sony.

There are several more very interesting Sony mirrorless offerings, the A9 and A7Riii, each of which provides its own performance factors.

Based on the capabilities of the A6500 and the fact that Sony improves their cameras with every iteration (as opposed to Canon which seemed to digress or at least side-step rather than advance when they produced the 6D2), I am exceptionally excited and holding my breath to see what the replacement for the A6500 will have in store for us. Rumors have it that this new crop sensor camera may be a mini A9 in capabilities.

If, and only if, I decide to get a mirrorless camera, I would expect to use the majority of my Canon glass with the new body. However, I think that I might get one native general purpose mid-range zoom lens to have a small package for when I desire to go light...

[Tronhard]

There was an interesting video I stumbled upon last night from the Northrops - once you look past the presentation style there are some interesting insights into where mirrorless may be going - accepting this was done before the releases of last week.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1IyIE2gAL4 - Canon and Nikon FF mirrorless predictions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYYaQz83etY - Mirrorless wars

These videos make sense to me - neither of these brands showed us their top of the line offereings, they have gone for a lower but powerful offering, certainly the Canon seems like an evolution of the 6DII for example.