Documentation and the Differences in finding results

[Tronhard]

I belong to another forum run by Canon, and I am amazed at the number of (sometimes desperate) inquiries for assistance from people who have joined just to ask a question that they could easily look up for themselves in the manual. In one case the poster indicated that they needed an answer within six hours and I saw it at 5 hours as the first responder - due to the time differences most of the forum members would have been asleep.

It took me four minutes to download the manual as a PDF and look up the answer in the document. I posted the link to the manual and page reference, but I am amazed at the number of people who don't bother to look at their manual and just ask the internet.

This may have some relation to an experiment conducted by a couple of universities in the USA. They posed several problems to about 400 people over a wide age spread. They all had access to various kinds of reference materials relevant to the questions. Very old people looked things up in the books, people of the PC era did an internet search and downloaded the materials to look up the answers. The cell phone generation shunned both and went onto social media to ask other people for the solutions - in doing so getting a range of solutions some of which were correct, some not.

I can see a time when cash strapped camera makers will give up enclosing manuals with the products and just let people ask each other!

[Donald]

I can see a time when cash strapped camera makers will give up enclosing manuals with the products and just let people ask each other!

A lot of electronic equipment manufacturers now do that. I recently bought a new mobile phone (cell phone). There was no manual. Just a small note of legalise telling how not to electrocute yourself etc.

You were very kind to the person telling them where to get the information. I just say RTFM.

[pnodrog]

A lot of electronic equipment manufacturers now do that. I recently bought a new mobile phone (cell phone). There was no manual. Just a small note of legalise telling how not to electrocute yourself etc.

You were very kind to the person telling them where to get the information. I just say RTFM.

I am shocked... I confirmed my interpretation of the initials RTFM on the internet and to my horror I had not misinterpreted it...

[Donald]

I am shocked... I confirmed my interpretation of the initials RTFM on the internet and to my horror I had not misinterpreted it...

Apologies for upsetting your antipodean sensitivities, Paul.

[Tronhard]

A lot of electronic equipment manufacturers now do that. I recently bought a new mobile phone (cell phone). There was no manual. Just a small note of legalise telling how not to electrocute yourself etc.

You were very kind to the person telling them where to get the information. I just say RTFM.

Ah yes, I have had the same experience with the last two cell phones I have bought.

With regards to the ignorant inquirer: I had a few moments to kill, but I did make a pointed comment that I resolved it in 4 minutes via the manual and they could have done so themselves instead of waiting five hours (minimum as they had to read my post to resolve the issue). There was an acknowledgement but no thank you of course.

I have found that there is a perception that the generations who have grown up with PCs and Cell devices don't need to be taught to use them as they will have somehow absorbed it all as they grew up. I have not found this to make them productive when using software such as MS Office (or even Windows) because they have not used them in a business context and applied those features appropriate to the work environment. Back in the 1980's no-one used PCs so they all came to classes and, once over their fear of the unknown, they mastered the software in a structured manner. Today I watch people using the same software and it's like giving them a sophisticated drill and watch them hammer in screws with it.

[Tronhard]

As regards RTFM, the first episode of the series "The IT Crowd" was hilarious as it highlighted the frustrations of IT people dealing with ignorant users. The tech even wore T-shirt emblazoned with the acronym! If you haven't seen it I strongly recommend it - see it on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0iU1AT0sck that and
Breaking the Internet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDbyYGrswtg

[Manfred M]

This is not necessarily a new phenomenon. I read an article a good 20 years ago comparing the profitability of two different software companies that produced similar software products for the PC market. One packed a lot of bound paper manuals while the other had virtually none and all documentation was on a CD in Adobe PDF files. The cost of printing and shipping paper manuals was the determining factor in the differences in profitability.

[Tronhard]

Agreed Manfred! Not only did it cost the manufacturers money to print and ship the paper manuals, but then the customers had to store them and that had a cost too. Then there was the issue of people losing the manuals.

The frustrating thing now is that people don't even seem to TRY to read the manual (in whatever form) they go on line and ask people. It's obviously my issue but I prefer to solve my own problems using the available resources if I can.

[DanK]

It's not a matter of using different tools. It's simple laziness, and it isn't limited to the manual. We see it from time to time here. New people come on and obviously haven't spent a minute looking for an answer, instead asking it here. Often the answer is very clearly explained either in the manual in a tutorial on this very site. I find it very inconsiderate--they are basically asking us to spend a good bit of time writing answers, rather than spending much less time themselves reading an answer already written.

Some people here take a long time to write answers to these queries, when the tutorial is sitting there and is more complete. I think that is a waste of people's time. I often now tell the questioners to read the relevant tutorial on this site first and only then ask us questions. I ought to save one of the posts so I don't have to type if over and over.

Re reading the manual: given that the manuals are available as pdfs, you don't even have to use an index to find what they want in many cases.

There used to be a site to use with people who are too lazy even to search a term, instead asking others on line. It would return a link that went to a page that gave results with a saying like "google is your friend." However, the link I have no longer does that.

[pnodrog]

Apologies for upsetting your antipodean sensitivities, Paul.

It's OK. My wife asked how old you were and when I said nearly as old as me she pointed out you were obviously confused and meant to write RTMF "read the manual first"...

[DanK]

How about RTFMF? That should end the ambiguity.


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[Shadowman]

Usually you can do a search much faster than asking the question especially with YouTube, my problem with finding information through YouTube though is you sometimes have to wade through the presenter's personality quirks.

[William W]

It's not a matter of using different tools. It's simple laziness, and it isn't limited to the manual. We see it from time to time here. New people come on and obviously haven't spent a minute looking for an answer, instead asking it here. Often the answer is very clearly explained either in the manual in a tutorial on this very site. I find it very inconsiderate--they are basically asking us to spend a good bit of time writing answers, rather than spending much less time themselves reading an answer already written.

Some people here take a long time to write answers to these queries, when the tutorial is sitting there and is more complete. I think that is a waste of people's time. I often now tell the questioners to read the relevant tutorial on this site first and only then ask us questions. I ought to save one of the posts so I don't have to type if over and over.

Hiya Dan…

My thoughts, just on the highlighted bits (likely a bit off the main topic):

Agree it is laziness. Emphatically agree. It’s cultured that way now, in schools, in life: if one doesn’t know something, then just look it up on the web. Someone else will do the work for you. There is no need to verify anything on the web as a primary source. No need to get second source verification, either.

Yes, maybe it is inconsiderate for people to ask “us” to spend time and effort replying.

But “us” has a choice. Ergo, IMO it is not a waste of “us” time if “us” chooses to not answer, or, simply refer them to the manual or tutorial - as you mentioned

WW

[Tronhard]

I wholeheartedly agree with Bill and Dan. The problem is I have always wanted to help people: that's why I was a teacher in various disciplines most of my life I guess. That said, in my case, having solved their issue I was not above telling them how to help themselves next time!

[george013]

May I distinguish between questions as "what is this button for" and "what happens when I push that button". Two different approaches.
Just reading isn't enough. Learning isn't a one way procedure. One need sometime a correction of what one thinks is right. And sometimes the "teacher" must be corrected. Learning is dynamic, two way.

Or sometime one did read the manual but just didn't understand what is written, due to his lack of knowledge or due to a bad written manual. Happens a lot of time with me. Than I've to seek for an answer and asking is just one way for it. And don't tell me you can find answers on the internet. This is internet too.

George

[NorthernFocus]

...I can see a time when cash strapped camera makers will give up enclosing manuals with the products and just let people ask each other!

The (video)gaming industry is already there. Many if not most of them don't even bother to produce manuals any more much less print them. They provide server space to host user forums and rely on the user community to write wikis, to provide technical support, and ultimately to identify bugs/improvement to the games. Granted one reason it works for them is that a significant portion of the user base is comprised of computer geeks, many of whom are willing to spend an inordinate amount of time doing so. Unlike us artistic types who haven't the slightest clue nor care how the equipment functions

[William W]

I agree that learning is a dynamic activity, but it does not necessarily require two or more people, in that dynamic.

WW

[DanK]

Or sometime one did read the manual but just didn't understand what is written, due to his lack of knowledge or due to a bad written manual. Happens a lot of time with me. Than I've to seek for an answer and asking is just one way for it.

Yes, but that is not what is being discussed here. What is being discussed is people who don't bother reading first, regardless of whether the reading is an online source or now. When I (perhaps rudely) tell people to start with a specific tutorial on this site (or perhaps RTFMF), I always suggest that afterwards, they post questions here about anything that remains unclear to them. IMHO, that's what this forum is for.

On rare occasions, I get a particularly extreme form of this. I teach at a university, and on occasion a student at another university (always a complete stranger) will ask me to answer questions that I suspect their own professors have asked them. Rather than find the information and craft their own answer, they want to simply relay what I tell them. I have a hard time restraining myself from telling them that this is what libraries (including online libraries) are for. I never answer their questions in my reply. This is entirely different from the legitimate questions I get from people who have dug into my subject and are stuck, or on occasion, those who have read something of mine and find it unclear.

[Manfred M]

May I distinguish between questions as "what is this button for" and "what happens when I push that button". Two different approaches.
Just reading isn't enough. Learning isn't a one way procedure. One need sometime a correction of what one thinks is right. And sometimes the "teacher" must be corrected. Learning is dynamic, two way.

Or sometime one did read the manual but just didn't understand what is written, due to his lack of knowledge or due to a bad written manual. Happens a lot of time with me. Than I've to seek for an answer and asking is just one way for it. And don't tell me you can find answers on the internet. This is internet too.

George

I quite agree George and I think that there are two or three different things at play here.

The first one is the level of language in the document and must align reasonably well. Give a public school student a university text book and there will be a significant mis-match. I did a lot of writing and presentations during my professional career. One of the first questions I would ask is "who is my audience?". That let me tailor my writing style and language to a level appropriate for the audience.

Another issue, and one you are quite familiar with George, is that the documents we get; certainly for camera gear, is a translation. This is something that you are certainly familiar with as English is not your native language. Most camera manuals will be drafted by Japanese writers and this work has to be translated so some of the nuances will be lost, especially if the translation is not done by a native speaker who is intimately familiar with camera functionality.

The final issue is the learning process and here I would defer to Dan who is an expert in this subject. That being said, I have always found learning to be an incremental process. We built our knowledge based on what we already know and taking a step that is too large can lead us astray even in something as simple as understanding what is in a manual.

[Hanginon]

The "Smartphone" has really changed everything. My wife, who lives on her iPhone and does everything with it, doesn't really know how to use her Windows laptop anymore (without my help).

The true genius of Apple is that everything was marketed as an "appliance" with a common user interface - which appeals to the computer illiterate. Flack jacket is on.

Yes, but that is not what is being discussed here. What is being discussed is people who don't bother reading first, regardless of whether the reading is an online source or now. When I (perhaps rudely) tell people to start with a specific tutorial on this site (or perhaps RTFMF), I always suggest that afterwards, they post questions here about anything that remains unclear to them. IMHO, that's what this forum is for.

This is the same reason why nuts and bolts subjected to vibration become loose instead of tighter - they are taking the "path of least resistance".