Documentation and the Differences in finding results

[DanK]

The "Smartphone" has really changed everything. My wife, who lives on her iPhone and does everything with it, doesn't really know how to use her Windows laptop anymore (without my help).

The true genius of Apple is that everything was marketed as an "appliance" with a common user interface - which appeals to the computer illiterate. Flack jacket is on.



This is the same reason why nuts and bolts subjected to vibration become loose instead of tighter - they are taking the "path of least resistance".

I think this is putting the cart before the horse. There are lots of technologies that allow one to search for information: physical libraries, online libraries, general search engines, specialized search engines like google scholar, etc. If someone chooses not to learn to use the ones he needs, that's not the fault of the existence of other tools.

For the past two years, I have told students that unless they have specific permission, they may not have a phone in front of them or a computer turned on in class. I am not the only one who is doing this. I did it for several reasons. Some learned less because the computer made it easy to distract themselves when their attention wandered. Some students complained that they were distracted by other students' computers. The class that prompted me had computers open all the time, and their performance made it clear that their attention was wandering. And there is now some solid research indicating that in at least some contexts, students learn less if they take notes on a computer. The total number of students who have complained about this is exactly zero. I pass out hard copies of my slides at the beginning of class, and they end up writing notes by hand on those and--get this--sticking them into old-fashioned three ring binders, which wasn't my suggestion. They find flipping through the notebooks an effective way to review. My point is that they adapted, and they did so nearly instantly. Give people a good reason to learn to use a tool and don't help them avoid learning it--don't give them an alternative "path of least resistance"--and most will learn it.

Consistent with that, when people post a question here that requires a long answer, and that long answer is provided in very clear form in the tutorials section, I point them to the right tutorial and tell them to ask me questions afterwards. Some then vanish into the ether, but some read and learn.

[Manfred M]

Good points Dan. In the city where I live, I have heard a number of people suggest that public libraries are no longer needed because "everything can be found on the internet" and closing them could be used to reduce taxes.

I personally find that scary and suspect people who have that opinion have not stepped inside a library in years if not decades.

[davidedric]

Oh dear. I feel a rant coming on - please feel free to ignore. Without the benefit of DanK's direct experience.

Back in the early seventies, when I was doing research, then of course there wasn't an internet. You read original papers and Reviews and looked to figure out what was what to inform your research. To be honest, a first degree was different, but not all that different - we were expected to learn rather than be taught.

Many of today's students seem to expect University (or "Uni" - hate that term) to be an extension of high school: turn up and be taught - rather than go out and learn. Indeed, I hear lots of interviews when students are asked what they expect from University they say something like "to have a good time and get a degree". I recently heard one first year student say "there seems to be a lot of reading". Too damn true! Though credit where it's due he was doing his reading.

Recent research (in the UK) has shown that many graduates don't get "graduate level" jobs. There seem to be two aspects to this. If you treble the number of graduates, you don't just get a similar increase in graduate level jobs, but also, employers are saying that many recent graduates just don't have the levels of literacy and numeracy that they need.

Ah well, off to bed.

Dave

[DanK]

To be fair, lots of students make use of the internet to do superb work, although much of that entails using the net to reach credible sources rather than typing search terms into Google. And the internet has made serious research much easier. In the old days, when I needed to do a literature search, I trekked to the library and sat down in front of a huge set of books that provided only a single index. Now I have multiple indexes at my fingertips, and if I need a source while I am reading something--e.g., if am not sure what an author means or suspect that a work is cited incorrectly--I can have articles on my screen in a minute or two. So I don't think it is fair to place too much blame on technology. You can use IT to indulge laziness, or you can use it as a very powerful tool to enable you to work better and faster.

It's a joke in my family that iPhones become encyclopedias at dinner. Often, when people raise a question no one can answer or people can't agree, someone will pull out a phone and say, 'well, let's see if we can find out.' of course, you have to be careful, as people can post any garbage they want on the net, but with a little care, one can answer a huge number of questions almost instantly.

[davidedric]

Yes, it's a long, long time since I had to do a literature search, and I can imagine how much easier it is nowadays. I wonder what the coverage would be? I recall finding a Russian paper from around 1936 which predated the seminal paper on the topic by twenty years and was completely missing from the literature till I found it in the early 1970's.

Anyway, there has been research published which suggests that readers retain and understand more from paper than a screen. It makes intuitive sense to me (think how easy it is to flip back to a graph or diagram with paper), and I know I have a tendency to skim read.

Having said all of that, the internet, or maybe world wide web, is a fabulous resource that I would hate to be without, as a source of information.

Dave

[Cantab]

Yes, it's a long, long time since I had to do a literature search, and I can imagine how much easier it is nowadays. I wonder what the coverage would be? I recall finding a Russian paper from around 1936 which predated the seminal paper on the topic by twenty years and was completely missing from the literature till I found it in the early 1970's.

Anyway, there has been research published which suggests that readers retain and understand more from paper than a screen. It makes intuitive sense to me (think how easy it is to flip back to a graph or diagram with paper), and I know I have a tendency to skim read.

...

Dave

I can relate to that!

And now I won't feel guilty about printing a paper copy of something I've found on the internet. I've sometimes wondered whether my predilection for paper was because I was a luddite but now I know empirical research supports me!

(P.S. any citations for this research?)

[revi]

Yes, it's a long, long time since I had to do a literature search, and I can imagine how much easier it is nowadays. I wonder what the coverage would be? I recall finding a Russian paper from around 1936 which predated the seminal paper on the topic by twenty years and was completely missing from the literature till I found it in the early 1970's.

Yes, literature searches are lot easier now. I've done both, the paper/microfiche version (Chem. Abs.) and the internet. But, a lot of the older literature is much harder to find with digital search, let alone to obtain as hardcopy (and digital copies just don't exist).

Which means that papers submitted for publication can get remarks like "nice work, but no better than ... (citation from 1960 or even older). The poor graduate student didn't know any better, and the supervisor wasn't a specialist either (but the editor or reviewer is...).

Also, I remember remarks like "there's a lot of reading" already from when I started at University (before internet). And it was true then as well, but mostly due to a difference in culture: high school taught what you needed to know for the exams, a large part of university was about learning to find what you need/want to know (either in literature or through experiments).

[MrB]

It's not only camera manuals that people can't be bothered to read. Some don't bother to look through the menus on the camera's LCD to see what's available (with reference to the manual if needed). An answer to a query might be something like "see camera menu 4, option 3". It is a pleasure to help but there are occasions when it shouldn't be necessary. It costs almost nothing but a little time to explore a digital camera but it seems that, for some people, it must be other people's time.

Philip

[Tringa]

I see this happening quite frequently on forums. Not just questions that should be answered by RTFM, but questions where, had the person, typed same query into Google would have a useful answer within seconds. Or where just a little searching would have come up with a result.

I can understand someone asking for opinions on virtually anything but where the query is a matter of fact, some folks seem unable (or perhaps unwilling) to just look it up. It has never been easier.

Dave

[rpcrowe]

I just looked up RTFM and I LOVE IT! Where have I been all my life that I had missed such an astute reply?

Regarding manuals... I am reasonably proficient in the use of a PC and I can easily access online manuals. However, I prefer to read a manual in hard copy. I get more out of it and of course it is easier to read while sitting on the ceramic library seat in the lavatory I have a magazine rack next to it and usually a manual for some piece of gear is residing in the rack. It is amazing what I have learned during those peaceful interludes with my manual - that is probably the ultimate multi-tasking situation

In all seriousness, I definitely prefer a printed manual to having the manual on my PC and/or my cell phone. I have a old Brother B&W laser printer that has been doing a wonderful job for me over the last seven or eight years. Purchasing a generic laser toner cartridge (I have been very happy with the LINKYO brand and have been using their B&W as well as color cartridges for years) and purchasing paper at a office supply chain store when it is on sale; I can print a two hundred page manual for $3.00 USD. I then have it spiral bound at a copy shop and I have a relatively inexpensive manual in the hard copy that I like.


Regarding Manfred's very apt statement that the manuals were written by Japanese and that some nuances many have been lost in translation... IMO, Japanese manuals have come a long way since I first encountered them in the 1960's. On the other hand, the manuals for many pieces of Chinese gear have a long way to go before they can be considered sophisticated

Many Chinese signs are written in what is humorously termed "Chinglish"; like this sign over a urinal in a Chinese men's room:

[davidedric]

Also, I remember remarks like "there's a lot of reading" already from when I started at University (before internet). And it was true then as well, but mostly due to a difference in culture: high school taught what you needed to know for the exams, a large part of university was about learning to find what you need/want to know (either in literature or through experiments).

​Absolutely, though my imimpression is a lot of that has been lost

Dave

[NorthernFocus]

... I don't think it is fair to place too much blame on technology...

Exactly my thoughts. Human nature hasn't changed for millennia. But one thing that technology has done is to make the behaviors associated with said nature more visible to us simply due to our exposure to more people via internet/social media.

...of course, you have to be careful, as people can post any garbage they want on the net...

And therein lies the rub. One thing that hasn't changed is the propensity for people to assign more credibility to things that they see in print(or on television news broadcasts). Unfortunately with the blogging phenomenon any idiot can publish whatever rubbish they choose and reach a broad audience of people with that very propensity to believe whatever they read.

[Manfred M]

Unfortunately with the blogging phenomenon any idiot can publish whatever rubbish they choose and reach a broad audience of people with that very propensity to believe whatever they read.

Unfortunately, some of these "idiots" are often well regarded "experts" in the field come up with information and statements that one can easily poke holes into. In some cases, especially when it comes to photography, people who come from a more creative, rather than technical bent don't quite understand the technology as well as they think. Others simply seem to miss the difference between opinion and fact and present their opinion as fact.

[NorthernFocus]

Unfortunately, some of these "idiots" are often well regarded "experts" in the field... Others simply seem to miss the difference between opinion and fact and present their opinion as fact.

Thus one of my favorite expressions from an unknown source; "Never mistake confidence for competence". That applies to oneself as well as others. Unfortunately opinion boldly presented looks/sounds like fact to many people. Perhaps to all of us depending on the subject and how well it agrees with our preconceived notions.

[Tronhard]

This is the kind of stuff I was referring to when I started this thread... I'm not sure it has to do with interpretation or higher learning styles. To me it's about people who don't make the effort to become competent with the basic features of their gear by reading even the most available material.


and my response...


Yes, I KNOW I shouldn't help if I am frustrated by such laziness, but I can't help myself. Still, I try to make the point so that they will realize they have a resource and will hopefully use it next time.

[MrB]

This is the kind of stuff I was referring to when I started this thread... I'm not sure it has to do with interpretation or higher learning styles. To me it's about people who don't make the effort to become competent with the basic features of their gear by reading even the most available material.

Yes, Trev - and that's also a good example to illustrate the point I was making in Post #28.

Philip

[Tronhard]

Yes, Trev - and that's also a good example to illustrate the point I was making in Post #28.

Philip

Absolutely Philip!

[davidedric]

Sometimes, it's hard work.

There's another forum (no names no pack drill) where a new participant wants presets for everything. The general advice has been along the lines of "presets have their uses, at least as a starting point, but they aren't a substitute for learning how to use the software, and they don't do anything (this is Lightroom) that you can't do yourself." Dialogue continues wanting more and more sources of presets, and then "how can I organise hundreds or even thousands of presets to find the one I want?"

To which the only answer should be "YOU DONT NEED HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS OF PRESETS", but why upset people.

I may have over egged the dialogue rather, but you may recognise the situation.

Dave

[rpcrowe]

Regarding Post #35. Obviously, the answer is where you pointed to in the manual. However, the OP could have been searching for "image display time" and might not have realized that the terminology for his answer was listed under "Image Review". Seems obvious, but sometimes the obvious is not totally obvious to the oblivious

Regarding comments on the yokels who try to be experts on YouTube videos and fall flat in the process The Internet is not the only place where people disgorge information that might not always be correct.

I have attended seminars sponsored by manufacturers in which the presenter did not seem to have an in depth knowledge about the equipment he was presenting

Cases in point:

A Canon Rep who was giving a lecture on the use of Canon flash units who didn't know that [on some if not all Canon camera/flash combinations] when HSS was selected and the camera shutter speed was slowed to the maximum sync speed or slower. the camera/flash would automatically revert to back to standard sync. And... then, if the shutter speed was increased to higher than the maximum sync speed, the combination would automatically revert again to HSS...

A Sigma Rep who was giving a presentation on Sigma lenses but did not know that the Sony e-mount, f/2.8 lenses such as the 19mm f/2.8 DN and 60mm f/2.8 DN do not have complete compatibility with Sony focusing systems. That they do not allow such capabilities as eye AF.

We used to say that an EXPERT was a guy from out of town with a slide projector. Now it's a person from out of town with a Power Point presentation

[Tronhard]

Hi Richard:

The fact is that if the poster had looked at the index under Image, he would have found the entry for Review Time. Call me a rare genius if you want , but that immediately leapt to my attention when looking for the information. From searching for the manual on line to getting the answer took me precisely 1 minute 10 seconds, most of which was waiting for the notices about copyright etc to be displayed! Sorry no sympathy at this end.