Documentation and the Differences in finding results

[george013]

A typical case of a two-step search: first find the right name of the item and than do the search with that. A common problem on the internet.

George

[Tronhard]

A typical case of a two-step search: first find the right name of the item and than do the search with that. A common problem on the internet.

George

I don't actually own that camera, so I had to download the manual - but really once that was done I used it as I would any hardcopy manual - I looked in the index. Apparently that is a dying art!

[William W]

It can be very difficult for some people to find stuff in an index - it is in alphabetical order: worse to go to a library - typically using the Dewey System.

No apology for any perception of sarcasm: I am serious.

My very best and closest friend begins implementing a two year program in 2019 which will target students entering the first year of High School (in a "medium to high" socioeconomic area) - the research to set up the program indicates that more than 28% of these 12~13 year olds, do not know "the alphabet".

WW

[rtbaum]

I find a similar phenomena in navigation where paper maps have been replaced with google maps. In the event where one misplaces their phone or the battery dies, they are totally lost.

[rpcrowe]

Trev, I meant the comment, "Seems obvious, but sometimes the obvious is not totally obvious to the oblivious" to be a bit sarcastic not to support the oblivious...

[Hanginon]

It can be very difficult for some people to find stuff in an index - it is in alphabetical order: worse to go to a library - typically using the Dewey System.

No apology for any perception of sarcasm: I am serious.

My very best and closest friend begins implementing a two year program in 2019 which will target students entering the first year of High School (in a "medium to high" socioeconomic area) - the research to set up the program indicates that more than 28% of these 12~13 year olds, do not know "the alphabet".

WW

Now we are getting to the root of the problem - reading comprehension.

My brain is wired for math, and my litmus test for math comprehension is "x + y = 5, what is x?". You start to get all kinds of responses like "we need to know the value of y or we'll have to guess". No you don't. The value of x is EXACTLY 5 - y. You'd be surprised how few people (children and adults) know this answer. The problem is that there has been too much rote learning vs meaningful learning.


Another. Quickly add 3998 + 3997. If you are mentally doing "7 + 8 is 15, so that is 5 carry the 1, etc.", that is rote. The big picture is "8000 - 5". Too many people think a $9,998.00 car is 9000 dollars plus change. They do not understand that in reality it is $10K.

This is largely a failure of our education system, and they are trying to address it with the so-called "new math".

Yes, using the old way, we successfully put a man on the moon and brought him back, alive, using a slide rule - but that was good for people whose brain is wired like mine - the others fell through the cracks.

What they really need is a High School course in designing a Chevy LS V-8 for maximum horsepower at a certain rpm. When you get into stuff like "optimal piston pin offset" to maximize torque on the crankshaft (through the whole crank cycle) while minimizing cylinder wall friction, then you start learning math. At least the boys would be interested!!

[george013]

Now we are getting to the root of the problem - reading comprehension.

My brain is wired for math, and my litmus test for math comprehension is "x + y = 5, what is x?". You start to get all kinds of responses like "we need to know the value of y or we'll have to guess". No you don't. The value of x is EXACTLY 5 - y. You'd be surprised how few people (children and adults) know this answer. The problem is that there has been too much rote learning vs meaningful learning.


Another. Quickly add 3998 + 3997. If you are mentally doing "7 + 8 is 15, so that is 5 carry the 1, etc.", that is rote. The big picture is "8000 - 5". Too many people think a $9,998.00 car is 9000 dollars plus change. They do not understand that in reality it is $10K.

This is largely a failure of our education system, and they are trying to address it with the so-called "new math".

Yes, using the old way, we successfully put a man on the moon and brought him back, alive, using a slide rule - but that was good for people whose brain is wired like mine - the others fell through the cracks.

What they really need is a High School course in designing a Chevy LS V-8 for maximum horsepower at a certain rpm. When you get into stuff like "optimal piston pin offset" to maximize torque on the crankshaft (through the whole crank cycle) while minimizing cylinder wall friction, then you start learning math. At least the boys would be interested!!

I'll ask the grocery for 5-y kg potatoes. I wonder what I get. And exactly.

George

[Tronhard]

I'll ask the grocery for 5-y kg potatoes. I wonder what I get. And exactly.

George

Ha... along the same lines, many years ago I was about to go to the local corner store to get some ice cream when I heard the news about the discovery of DNA. I listened enraptured at this amazing advance in science. Having got to the store and found my ice cream I (rather flilppently) asked the clerk if this was the brand contained Deoxoribonucleic Acid, to which she replied "I reckon" - not having the radio on in the store and almost certainly having no idea what I was talking about. I had to laugh because she was, of course, right!

[george013]

Ha... along the same lines, many years ago I was about to go to the local corner store to get some ice cream when I heard the news about the discovery of DNA. I listened enraptured at this amazing advance in science. Having got to the store and found my ice cream I (rather flilppently) asked the clerk if this was the brand contained Deoxoribonucleic Acid, to which she replied "I reckon" - not having the radio on in the store and almost certainly having no idea what I was talking about. I had to laugh because she was, of course, right!

Wow, living icecream containing DNA!!

George

[Manfred M]

Now we are getting to the root of the problem - reading comprehension.

My brain is wired for math, and my litmus test for math comprehension is "x + y = 5, what is x?". You start to get all kinds of responses like "we need to know the value of y or we'll have to guess". No you don't. The value of x is EXACTLY 5 - y. You'd be surprised how few people (children and adults) know this answer. The problem is that there has been too much rote learning vs meaningful learning.


Another. Quickly add 3998 + 3997. If you are mentally doing "7 + 8 is 15, so that is 5 carry the 1, etc.", that is rote. The big picture is "8000 - 5". Too many people think a $9,998.00 car is 9000 dollars plus change. They do not understand that in reality it is $10K.

This is largely a failure of our education system, and they are trying to address it with the so-called "new math".

Yes, using the old way, we successfully put a man on the moon and brought him back, alive, using a slide rule - but that was good for people whose brain is wired like mine - the others fell through the cracks.

What they really need is a High School course in designing a Chevy LS V-8 for maximum horsepower at a certain rpm. When you get into stuff like "optimal piston pin offset" to maximize torque on the crankshaft (through the whole crank cycle) while minimizing cylinder wall friction, then you start learning math. At least the boys would be interested!!

My brother's brain is wired much like yours and he has never been able to understand how people cannot understand math. On the other hand, his language skills lie in the opposite direction of his math skills, so he is not particularly interested in literature or reading. Much to his chagrin, only one of his three children showed any talent for math...

On the flip side of this story, I remember by classmates being quite incensed when one of our engineering professors deducted marks for spelling and grammar mistakes in our assignments, rather than errors in math or physics, like the other ones did. He had a very good point, an engineer that cannot communicate with his peers or others, regardless of how good his math and physics (and chemistry skills) are,. If he or she cannot clearly articulate this knowledge, especially to decision makers, it is not particularly useful.

[Tronhard]

Just as we recognize that there are degrees of gender identification and one can be more or less one of those, I think we can divide the world into spectrum of those comfortable with numbers and/or words.

I think the more extreme one is in one direction, FOR THE MOST PART, they will be less so in the other. For example, my partner is a genius at language. She can be fluent in 9: English, Russian, French, Italian, Spanish, Mandarin, Cantonese, Japanese and Korean. When she went to South America she had already got the Spanish down pat, but when she got to Brazil, of course they spoke Brazilian Portuguese. On the first day she listened, on the second day she spoke and on the forth day she translated. For me her language skills came in particularly handy when she was able to translate our Japanese car's maintenance manual... She also has great organizational and management skills - something very rare in academia I have observed. Still numbers leave her pretty cold - she glazes over.

I have not got a good language range, in part because I never got the chance at school - we learned only French (in NZ in the 1960's that was not great) and Latin - very handy in my anatomy studies and to figure out word derivations. I have tended to be a numbers person. (I did the maths example in my head using the subtraction method! ) I found that the calculator killed mental arithmetic for many people: years ago we used mental arithmetic and 7 figure log tables when I worked in legal survey. When the electronic calculator came along the new generation wanted to stop if their calculator ran out of energy. Like all performance things (physical or mental) you have to keep actively doing something or you lose it.

But I am more of a generalist - while she has doctorates in language, I hold undergrad degrees in Education, Engineering (Civil and IT), but have the masters equivalent in Management and communications, with minors in sociology, psych, anthropology and education Somewhere in there I learned photography - still working on that!

One thing we both share is love of teaching - she in language and cultural studies at a high academic level at university; for me in business teaching IT, comms skills, life skills, fitness and anatomy (+ a book), management (+ a book). We both love to learn, and our skills complement each other.

I guess we are transitionists - we are at home with books and indices as much as web searches. Still, I think it is fair to say that we both look for source information rather than asking the general world what the answer is to something... something to do with academic rigor perhaps.

[William W]

Slightly wandering off topic:

Now we are getting to the root of the problem - reading comprehension.

That’s not the core of the onion, but it is close.

***

This is largely a failure of our education system, and they are trying to address it with the so-called "new math".

Much closer to the core of the onion.

And not just the "new teaching methods" for Primary Mathematics, but for Primary Literacy, too.

***

What they really need is a High School course in designing a Chevy LS V-8 for maximum horsepower at a certain rpm. When you get into stuff like "optimal piston pin offset" to maximize torque on the crankshaft (through the whole crank cycle) while minimizing cylinder wall friction, then you start learning math. At least the boys would be interested!!

Perhaps. Applied real life examples are a very useful teaching/learning tool.

But the bigger question is, 'Why wouldn’t the Girls be interested?'

(Understood the comment was meant in casual conversation, but the question is still valid...)

Or perhaps, in fact Girls are interested, so the question then becomes, 'Why don't they show their interest?'

WW

[William W]

. . . I guess we are transitionists - we are at home with books and indices as much as web searches.

That is a good skills-set to have: and will become rarer.

I think that particular skill-set is also a product of other life experiences - the generational group who typically would be 'transitionalists' will have lived through world events and technology changes spanning (circa.) 1950/60~ 2020.

And those would typically have had a Primary Education that was basically the same in Mathematics and Literacy across the Western World.

I shall use the label, give you the credit when I do.

WW

[rtbaum]

Yes, using the old way, we successfully put a man on the moon and brought him back, alive, using a slide rule - but that was good for people whose brain is wired like mine - the others fell through the cracks.

My brother is a retired nuclear engineer in the Navy, he designed a filtration system to scrub oil from the water used to cool the reactors on submarines. Although he had access to computers, he insisted on using his circular slide rule.

As an aside, the first Mars probe crashed into the surface because a rocket scientist forgot to convert from feet to meters

[DanK]

trying to address it with the so-called "new math".

That phrase is used in so many ways that it no longer means anything specific.

I first encountered one version of the new math when I was in elementary school in the 1950s. For two summers and two school years, I was a guinea pig for a "new math" system called the "Madison Project". It was absolutely wonderful. By fifth grade, we were trying to figure out how to factor quadratic equations. No one gave us or told us to memorize the quadratic equation. I still remember arguing with the program's designer, as an 11 year old, when he wouldn't agree that 1/0 should be infinity. It seemed nicely symmetrical to me, and I had to struggle with the notion of an undefined operation. Modular math? Old hat by the age of 10 or 11. It was a reaction against the "old math", which was oriented toward mastering procedures rather than conceptual understanding. It gave me a lifetime love of mathematics.

When I became an elementary school teacher in the early 1970s, "new math" had morphed into something entirely different: like the old math, it was memorization-focused, but instead of memorizing procedures, kids memorized things like set theory. Even less useful. Yes, we talked about set theory in the Madison project, but as a pedagogy, what I saw in the 1970s had absolutely nothing in common with what I went through in the Madison project.

That is mostly in the rearview mirror now. I think if you were to visit classrooms, you would see a mix of the old math and newer things like the Common Core standards, which are certainly not "new math." Pick a state you are interested in, and download a set of released math items from the state test. In the states with which I am familiar, you won't find new math. Here is an absolutely random extract from grade 6 Common Core standards:

CCSS.Math.Content.6.RP.A.1
Understand the concept of a ratio and use ratio language to describe a ratio relationship between two quantities. For example, "The ratio of wings to beaks in the bird house at the zoo was 2:1, because for every 2 wings there was 1 beak." "For every vote candidate A received, candidate C received nearly three votes."

CCSS.Math.Content.6.RP.A.2
Understand the concept of a unit rate a/b associated with a ratio a:b with b ≠ 0, and use rate language in the context of a ratio relationship. For example, "This recipe has a ratio of 3 cups of flour to 4 cups of sugar, so there is 3/4 cup of flour for each cup of sugar." "We paid $75 for 15 hamburgers, which is a rate of $5 per hamburger."1

CCSS.Math.Content.6.RP.A.3
Use ratio and rate reasoning to solve real-world and mathematical problems, e.g., by reasoning about tables of equivalent ratios, tape diagrams, double number line diagrams, or equations.

I've taught statistics and psychometrics at the graduate level for years, and if I had to point a finger at a problem, it wouldn't be the "new math." I would point to instruction that is deadly dull, leading many kids to hate math and to avoid studying it if they can; instruction that is oriented toward rote procedures rather than conceptual understanding; and a lack of connection between what they are taught in math class and the world around them (which is connected to both of the other two). Unfortunately, in many cases, this continues at the university level. Also, in US culture, unlike some others, it's considered perfectly fine to be incompetent in math. That takes a toll.

Re an earlier post: when I was a graduate student in psychology, I had a roommate who was a student in applied math. One night, when we had been studying all evening--he was studying for a math class, I was studying for a stat class--he said, "I think you study math differently from me." He apparently had been watching me for a few minutes. He said that he thought I read the words first and then worked through the algebra. I had to think a moment, but I realized that most of the time, that is what I did. He did the reverse: he started by going through the algebra, and then he read to see what the author had written about it.

[William W]

I know your commentary was heartfelt and for me was very informative and I appreciate that greatly, but this sentence got me laughing so much, that I started to cry:

. . . I still remember arguing with the program's designer, as an 11 year old, when he wouldn't agree that 1/0 should be infinity. It seemed nicely symmetrical to me, and I had to struggle with the notion of an undefined operation.

Just goes to show . . . if you used those wordsmith skills in your stats class, it would be a real hoot to be one of your students . . .

WW

[george013]

I think one shouldn't generalize individual experiences.
At the primary and secondary school, I don't know their names in the world, we learn facts, words. We're tested if we know those words,skills or other things. In a later education we don't learn those little things anymore. We've to step out that framework that schools are: taking care of a pre-defined knowledge of different subjects. In a later stage of education we're expected for using that knowledge. But that has to be taught too. And by the profs. And that's where many teachers complain about: that switch to using and expanding knowledge.

Time's changing. It was and is.
When I was on the university in the mid 70's we had a half year college History of Political Doctrine.That prof was giving that hear college for about 25 years, every year, or maybe twice a year, exactly the same story, the same jokes. I met a girl who started a year before me and she has written down everything in shorthand and worked that out on paper. I asked if I could have it, multiplied it 150 times and gave it away. Next college was the most visited college he ever had. Everybody checking the reliability of the papers. When he find out what happened he had to change his college. Nowadays this example looks pre-historic. Everybody is able to record his college on some machine or the smartphone. Or the colleges are given on channels like youtube. Time is changing.

I never read a manual completely. And about camera's I always bought a second book about that camera hoping on a different explanation/approach of a certain subject.

I know I'm rather pigheaded. I don't accept much without a good explanation. The Dutch word for pigheaded is "eigenwijs". It's a combination of two words eigen=self and wijs=wise.

George

[Tronhard]

I never read a manual completely. George

I must admit I have read only two manuals completely - the one for my Nikon F3 and the one for my Canon A-1, but before them I had also read and re-read and avidly consumed The Photographer's Handbook by John Hedgecoe. I read the book first because I could not afford a camera and the book went through the principles of photography and then used a large number of images to explain the technical and artistic elements involved in each. Finally when I went overseas I got my cameras, read the manuals and talked my way into a job as an engineer and site photographer on a big dam project - from then on it was practice, practice, practice...

Once I am familiar with a brand of camera, when I get a new one I have already read all the reviews and marketing blurb that got me to buy the thing in the first place so I go through the menus to see what's new and where it is. The more experience one had with photography and with a brand the shorter the learning curve and the less likely I am to leap to the manual - I think that is true of any developing technology. The challenge comes when there is a major change in technology or the interface.

[pnodrog]

The only part of my car manual that I have read carefully is the bit on adjusting the time to daylight saving. It's done through the navigation settings and is the least intuitive method the manufacturer could think of. I hope I am up to the challenge this weekend.

[William W]

Wear a wrist watch: with three sweep hands and a crown.
It's one of those ancient things, like books and libraries.