Seeking mirrorless advice

Although I didn't want to start a DSLR vs ML post the replies were very interesting to read!
There is no doubt that currently DSLRs deliver better IQ for the money and are arguably more reliable in many situations. Maybe in the future things will change, who knows.. and as someone pointed out it is not wise to invest serious money in ML at the moment and in my situation especially since it'll be a second body I would use just for fun and lightweight every-day walk around. I'd bring my d810 99% of the times when I travel or when I plan a shoot, thats why I don't really need to have a zoom lens or great AF capabilities, sometimes it's just nice to go out just with your 24 - 28 or 35.
Manfred said focus peaking in ML is as reliable as the AF confirmation and to me that sounds very good, especially because you see it on your subject without having to look at it on the bottom left corner (now of course it is not the best way to focus a manual lens but how many times can you shoot in live-view zoomed in 100%?) there is also a magnification aid you could use directly in the EVF that sounds very nice.
That said the choice seems to go towards the sony APS-C maybe a6000/a6300 with a kit zoom (300-400€) and Ai lenses on the cheap side or maybe a fuji and a 23mm f2 so i keep AF and can adapt Ai lenses anyway but this would be a costly option (around 600-700€ if I'm lucky). Another option could be going on a MFT camera but I'm excluding it since good lenses cost a lot and the crop factor doesn't help at all with my FF lenses (yes there are many cheap vintage, but are they really worth it?).

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Originally Posted by rpcrowe

The 28-70mm Sony Kit Lens arrived today. We have to go to our daughter's house for a dinner this afternoon so I don't have time to play with it. I did mount it on my A6500 and have one piece of advice for anyone contemplating a Sony mirrorless camera.

I recommend the purchase at least one native Sony lens with the camera! The difference between viewing an image with one of my Canon lenses adapted for the Sony and viewing it with the kit lens attached is night and day; and that's just a kit lens!

I can't wait until tomorrow when I can have the time to thoroughly work out my A6500.

As opposed to earlier posts when I considered dumping the Sony, I am now considering the purchase of another lens or two and a second body - possibly full frame somewhere in the future. This could be a wonderful travel kit...

I have also time to wait for the next Sony Crop camera to come out! That is supposed to be an A9 in a reduced form factor!

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Richard - I can highly recommend the Sony FE 2/28 lens. It is small, light weight and sharp as all get out too. I use it on my Nex-7 and A7ii. It is my only native lens so far.

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Originally Posted by marl

. . . I'm having some trouble deciding which mirrorless camera to purchase as a second body. . . . I'm a Nikon user and currently have a D810 and various lenses . . . thinking about purchasing a mirrorless mainly due to size issues for those situations requiring something discrete and for some extremely lightweight walk-around fun with just a 24 or 35mm (FF equivalent) prime . . . this isn’t about substituting the d810, I’d like to have a ML camera as a second body for situations like Manfred’s trip. AF is welcomed but not that necessary (I’d go with the d810) and the idea of using manual focus with focus peaking intreageues (sic) me. . . .

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I have a comprehensive Canon DSLR Kit. It comprises mainly 5D Series Bodies (i.e.“Full Frame”) and that’s what I mainly use; I also have one APS-C body. I have several fine EOS Series Lenses for that kit.

A few years ago, I wanted an additional camera for the purposes similar to what you describe. I bought a (new) Fuji X100s just after the newer model was announced. A Prime Lens didn’t fluster me, nor did the fact that it was a fixed lens. The addition of a Leaf Shutter was fantastic; I’ve missed using Leaf Shutters since I packed away my 645 and 6x6 gear (Film). Important to this conversation, the Fuji X100s has been my constant companion since. It goes everywhere, no matter what Canon gear I take.

Recently asked (elsewhere, LINK) “why” I bought my Fuji as a “pocket camera” – here is my response:

> it is small enough to fit into a jacket pocket
> it is light weight
> it appears like a 'film camera' - that has been (anecdotally) a less intrusive/obvious tool to use for Street Photography - I don't know why, it is just a thought, not a theory, but quite a few people have mentioned phrases like "old school photography" and have encouraged me to take their photograph.
> it is silent
> it is really cute
> it has a Leaf Shutter (Flash as Fill in daylight)
> it has a Prime Lens (I have to think more)

After using the Fuji X100s for a few years, the idea of a ‘smaller’ system began to reoccur in my head.

By 'smaller' I mean lighter weight, more ‘simplistic’, smaller physically. This was not a ‘fad and fashion’ thought for me: I rarely have ‘fad’ thoughts, especially when buying camera gear.

Because my main criterion was ‘smaller’, when I looked deeper into what mirrorless offering there were, there was (and still is) NOT any thought of me entertaining a ‘Full Frame’ Mirrorless Camera. I wanted something more flexible (than the 23mm lens on my Fuji X100s) as an addition to my DSLR Kit.

After thinking the matter through several times, from the beginning each time, I chose a Canon EOS M5 Body. My rationale was that (with the adapter) I could always use my existing Canon Lenses (albeit that they are HUGE by comparison when mounted on the M5).

The other road my mirrorless journey has taken, was to recently buy a (small) set of Manual Focus (very fast) Prime Lenses to make a Camera Kit based around the EOS M5. The Lenses relatively inexpensive, (being MF); they are small, very sharp and very fast.

I find that the Focus Peaking options are considerable in the M5 and I achieve good Manual Focus quite easily; noted that I have had a several flying hours using MF lenses, but, for those who have only ever used AF lenses, we should expect with a bit of dedicated practice, excellent MF skills can be learnt.

I understand that the Nikon Mirrorless Camera offerings, and the Nikon Range are different to what Canon offers; but I think that my story is worth sharing with you, if, for nothing else than to encourage you to begin the exercise with a blank sheet of paper and write down your key priorities (i.e. outcomes that you want to achieve) and be prepared to think outside the nine dots when considering what Camera you buy and what Lenses can work with it.

WW

Excellent and systematic analysis of your personal needs, Bill.

Rather than having a solution in mind and then looking for ways of rationalizing the decision, you set out in a direction of defining your requirements and then identifying the solution that best met those requirements. A lot less time and money would be wasted if everyone took this approach before making equipment buying decisions.

Exactly so. I have long since lost track of the many times I have posted in various places something like "before you ask for advice on new equipment, tell us what it is that you want to do that your current equipment doesn't do well."

When anyone asks me what they should get in terms of camera equipment I always ask them these questions:

1. What is the Budget?
There is no point in people giving advice to buy the expensive gear that they like when the budget can't support the expenditure. (It also helps, in an international forum, to know what currency is involved).

2. What Kinds of Photographic Input is involved?
Or to put it another way, what will be photographed. These requirements will help to define the types of gear required. There is a wide range of uses for cameras and they often call for different gear. For example someone doing weddings albums will likely have different requirements compared to a wildlife shooter or a videographer.

3. What kind of Output will be generated?
VERY significantly, the requirements to produce high-quality large-format prints are very different from producing media for the web or for small prints, and then there is videography. So why buy a sledgehammer to crack a nut?

4. Comfort and Handling
What are you prepared to carry? There is no point in having a beautiful camera kit that is too heavy to carry. While a lot of people are touting the benefits of MILCs they still need to realize that good lenses are still large and heavy and not only does that add to the bulk of the system, but may unbalance the feel of the camera.

Also to be considered is the ergonomic layout of controls, menus and the possibility to customize some buttons. If you find the controls hard to work with it will not bode well for user satisfaction.

5. What kind of future does the inquirer intend?
In part this implies their level of commitment to photography: e.g.casual, student, enthusiast, semi-pro, professional, and where do they see themselves in three years time? The greater their commitment the more likely they are to invest significantly, and perhaps the corollary is more significant: if they are not serious do they need an expensive system?

6. Consider the Glass
Buying a DSLR or MILC means investing in a system - and changing systems can be expensive. Bodies will change fairly frequently, but lenses often cost more than the body and last a lot longer. I would put the investment in a good lens system in front of a manufacturer's current body.

As far as a process to purchase a camera is concerned I follow this process, which is the same for companies investing in any infrastructure:

1. Establish Your Criteria
Define benefits you want, rank them in priority of NEEDS, WANTS and BONUS EXTRAS. It is here that you establish what your existing gear does not do that justifies an upgrade (if applicable).
Realize that benefits represent something you want the product or service to deliver for your purposes, which are quite different from features, which are things the product is capable of doing.
2 Research for Products
Find products that have features the match your benefits list - use independent review sites, talk to other similar photographers
3 Compare and Filter
Compare the features with your benefits list
4 Remove any that don’t match your “must have” criteria
Reduce the list to 2-3.
5 Evaluate
Try out the gear with a hands-on evaluation - it is a wise investment to rent equipment for a period before committing to buy.
6 Make your purchase

I suspect you lot with your considered decision making based on needs are a very small minority.

Is it a good looking fashion accessory, looks professional and will impress my friends are far more important criteria than function for the really big market the manufactures target...:)

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Originally Posted by pnodrog

. . . Is it a good looking fashion accessory, looks professional and will impress my friends are far more important criteria than function for the really big market the manufactures target...:)

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ha ha ... love the humour:

for my "good look fashion accessory", I bought a Speedmaster 35mm F/0.95 . . .

https://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/18488021-lg.jpg

WW

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Originally Posted by pnodrog

I suspect you lot with your considered decision making based on needs are a very small minority.

Is it a good looking fashion accessory, looks professional and will impress my friends are far more important criteria than function for the really big market the manufactures target...:)

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I believe this is called "Marketing".

I define Marketing as trying to get someone to buy something they don't need for more money than they want to spend... :D

I spent a lot of time working for companies driven by the Marketing departments.

Sadly I must agree that I cannot claim to have made every purchase using the criteria I have outlined. In fact my sales and marketing training tells me that almost every purchase has some basis on emotion - either to attract or repel the potential buyer.

The thing is that I must agree many people buy or upgrade their camera under the GAS principle that something new is bound to make them a better photographer. I make myself go out and take pictures with my oldest gear just to remind myself that I actually have some purpose and value in the whole process after all! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Tronhard

. . . almost every purchase has some basis on emotion - either to attract or repel the potential buyer. . .

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Agree. I am not immune, though my script might have implied that. Of course there was emotion involved. My Fuji X100s is "cute".

Obviously I took a definitive point of view when I wrote "This was not a ‘fad and fashion’ thought for me: I rarely have ‘fad’ thoughts, especially when buying camera gear." . . . that doesn't mean to imply that "joy" and "fun" are not (were not) part of my buying choice. It's a balance.

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Trev wrote "I must agree many people buy or upgrade their camera under the GAS principle that something new is bound to make them a better photographer." And he then wrote "I make myself go out and take pictures with my oldest gear just to remind myself that I actually have some purpose and value in the whole process after all!"

When we do that, I think it is also important to realize that (for example) the EOS 20D still can make very fine, in fact excellent 20" x 24" pictures when used properly at ISO 200: my point being is an advancement in technology does not make the superseded model any less capable.

WW

If I could access live view through the eye level viewfinder pf the Canon 6D Mark 2, I would be very happy with this camera and would not think of getting a second outfit. The Dual pixel CMOS AF of the 6D Mark 2 is just great and face detect will grab focus on the eyes or the eye closest to the camera.

However, having to use the LCD as my viewfinder for the Dual Pixel CMOS AF is a great PITA. I think that I might really like the A6500! If I don't, then I will sell it and try and see if the eye level viewfinder and Dual Pixel CMOS AF of the Canon M-50 will grab eye focus as well as the 6D Mark-2 does.

Speaking on another lens... I am quite excited regarding the Sigma announcement of a 56mm f/1.4 for e mount Sony cameras.

At 58mm (84mm equivalent on the A6500) and f/1.4; this lens "should" be a very decent portrait glass.

The e-mount lens availability is growing with both Sigma and Tamron starting to produce lenses for the Sony mirrorless line.

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Originally Posted by rpcrowe

The e-mount lens availability is growing with both Sigma and Tamron starting to produce lenses for the Sony mirrorless line.

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Sony "open sourced" it's codes for lenses. Third Party glass for Nikon/Canon still has to be reverse engineered - another decision that may haunt them in the upcoming war.

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Originally Posted by Hanginon

Sony "open sourced" it's codes for lenses. Third Party glass for Nikon/Canon still has to be reverse engineered - another decision that may haunt them in the upcoming war.

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From what little I have read, what Sony did was to make the specifications for the E mount, not lenses, available to manufacturers they approve without payment of a licensing fee, to encourage third-party manufacturers to get into the game. They did it 7 years ago. AFAIK, the other manufacturers charge a licensing fee. That seems like a sensible decision if Sony believed that a shortage of lenses was eating into their profits by limiting sales of bodies and didn't want to invest in rapidly increasing its own line of lenses. The other manufacturers seemingly have been happy to pay the big manufacturers to get a share of their action, and it would make sense for Canon and Nikon to stick with what they have been doing if they are making a lot of money on lenses and want to recoup some $$ when someone buys a third party lens from another manufacturer. If they see that it is hurting their bottom line, they can just reduce or eliminate their licensing fees.

Tamron is now rushing into the Sony market. But put yourself in their shoes. Would you then say, "I'll skip Canon--by far the largest camera manufacturer--and just make Sony lenses because Canon charges a licensing fee? I doubt that would happen, but Canon can change their policy if it makes them more money to do so.

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Originally Posted by marl

... every review I read seems to praise Fuji's excellent image quality...

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my two cents: i only even found out about fujis milcs because i saw photos that just looked so damn great. so i checked, and whaddayaknow they were all fuji x t2 and some x t10 (various photographers and motives). i probably wont have money laying around until these are replaced, but some of their offspring will be my next camera, even tho that would mean getting to know a different manufacturer

I can only speak from experience. Much of what I read above was certainly true two years ago. It is not accurate now. Yes battery power can be a problem. On holiday I use about a battery a day delivering about 400 RAW images. If you can't charge on a daily basis then ….. I carry just two batteries. Battery management has moved on. The rear screen can be switched off until needed or more normally is automatically switched off when you offer up an eye to the EVF. Auto focus today is generally a combination of Contrast and Phase detect. Auto focus in low light has until recently been less than you might want but the latest generation have cracked that. Speed has been more than good enough on the top end cameras for some time. I have been able to adjust camera settings without removing the camera from my eye since owning an Xt-1, two generations ago. Dependance on a menu driven system just doesn't feature. From the last generation, EVF and rear screen performance has been excellent and start up times and screen blanking is no longer a problem. Some mirrorless cameras even combine an optical viewfinder with an electronic equivalent. Moreover, unlike an SLR, when you do adjust settings at eye level, you see precisely what effect the settings are having in real time. Many mirrorless cameras also now feature electronic shutters; completely silent and capable of higher shutter speeds - if that's what you want. Finally, as for lens performance and IQ, none of my primes are less than f1.2/f1.4 and Fuji lenses are regularly compared to Leica glass with the difference that the only factor that doesn't compare is price and they are of solid metal construction (unlike some Nikkors). Fuji lenses are no where near as expensive. The weight advantage has been talked of a lot and is real but I note that Fuji's recent XH-1 has reversed the trend and is why I have no interest in that particular model. I used Nikon Cameras for very many years before transferring to Fuji and although Nikon cameras are without doubt excellent instruments, I would not go back.

I'm not going to claim that Mirrorless are better than SLR's but today, nor are they inferior. The choice, as has already been said, should be made based on intended use and most importantly, hands on assessment but not in the belief that choosing mirrorless has to be a poor compromise.

Finally, I have quoted from Fuji designs but all of the established mirrorless manufacturers now produce excellent cameras.

I discovered something about the Sony A6500... I can focus this camera with a wide aperture lens better than any DSLR I have ever used; in fact as well as I did with film SLR cameras which were set up for manual focus.

I started manually focusing when I received the adapter for the Russian Helios 58mm f/2 lens that I purchased earlier. The Helios just snapped into focus and I didn't even use focus peeking or zoom in as a manual focusing aid.

Well I thought, Richard, if the Helios focused that well manually, I'll bet that the Canon 85mm f/1.8 would also do a good job on the A6500 with the Sigma MC-11 adapter. I worked just fine.

The auto focus capability when using the MC-11 is not quite up to par but, it manually focuses just great. I'll bet that if I zoomed in for focusing and perhaps used focus peeking, it will work wonderfully for portraits (which is my primary use for the 85mm f/1.8).

In fact, it works so well that I have may have saved saved the $600 USD cost of the Sony 85mm f/1.8 lens. Even with the MC-11 adapter added, the Canon 85mm f/1.8 lens is not too big or too heavy on the little Sony.

The tiny Canon 40mm f/2.8 pancake lens seems to AF quite well. I have not tried the more complex focusing such as face recognition. That said, I have always thought that the 40mm focal length was quite awkward on a crop sensor, although I like it fine on a full frame camera.

I have just received the adapter for my Russian Helios today and have only played with it a little bit. The same is true for manually focusing the 85mm on the Sony A6500.

My photo club has been invited to the Oktoberfest celebration in a local city. We will be the official photographers for the event and will be given free entry and will be invited to a free lunch. In return we will provide the club sponsoring the affair with portraits of the participants. So I will take my Canon DSLR and my trusty 70-200mm f/4L IS lens because I KNOW I CAN PRODUCE WITH THAT EQUIPMENT...

However, a local Serbian Orthodox Church is sponsoring a SERBFEST all weekend. I plan to attend on Sunday with only my A6500, the 58mm Russian lens and my 85mm f/1.8 Canon. Then I will be able to determine if I can produce with his outfit in real life shooting nut, with no pressure to produce pictures for anybody.

I'll let you know how I do...

BTW: This is the M42 to Sony E mount adapter I bought. I really like it. The foot is set up for an Arca Swiss clamp that I use on all of my tripods and monopods...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/M42-Screw-L...53.m2749.l2649

The Sony Eye-AF which is available on some Sony mirrorless cameras with selected lenses is just great. I have set up my Sony A6500 so that the center button in back accesses Eye-AF. It is unbelievably easy to use. Here are two shots using Eye-AF on the A6500 with a Sony 50mm f/1.8 OSS lens wide open.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-...2hgwH7z-X2.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-...MtXr3x6-X2.jpg

The Eye-AF wll focus on both eyes if they are equidistant but, on the closest eye if the eyes are not equidistant.

I can have the A6500 in constant AF which will take care of any slight movements of model or camera...

The lens is pretty darn sharp also...

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Originally Posted by Manfred M

I believe this is called "Marketing".

I define Marketing as trying to get someone to buy something they don't need for more money than they want to spend... :D

I spent a lot of time working for companies driven by the Marketing departments.

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I like your definition. I did a lot of consulting for medical device companies. One physician I encountered defined a consultant as someone who tells you the time of day while he's looking at your watch.