Tilt & Shift Lenses - Questionnaire

[rpcrowe]

Manfred- excellent and concise explanations.

I have not used tilt-shift since my view camera days. I can definitely see the advantage of using a tilt shift lens in indoor or architectural photography but, I am wondering if the results from added expense and added work of a tilt shift lens produces enough dividends for a landscape photographer to make the purchase/use of the lens worthwhile for landscape use?

I guess that is the question that prompted this conversation.

Beside perspective control. I frequently used the tilt-shift capability of a view camera to gain a wider DOF. This was really important since I was using lenses of a long focal length to cover my 4x5 inch image. However, nowadays, we can do a lot of perspective correction in Adobe RAW and if we need extra DOF, we can always use focus stacking for non moving subjects.

[Manfred M]

However, nowadays, we can do a lot of perspective correction in Adobe RAW and if we need extra DOF, we can always use focus stacking for non moving subjects.

The main issue with that approach is that one loses pixels. When displaying on a computer screen, not necessarily an issue as the image will get downsized / down sampled. For a print, the loss of quality from that approach is not acceptable.

[William W]

The main issue with that approach is that one loses pixels. . . For a print, the loss of quality from that approach is not acceptable.

I concur. Not acceptable for exhibition prints and/or high quality sales.

I expect Donald in very much into the former and would not knock-back the latter!

WW

[William W]

Donald,

I was thinking on this topic over the weekend. (I think it is very important that we all spend your money, wisely.) . . .

Seriously, I was thinking on Manfred's comments (Post #13) concerning Panoramas. If you consider Panoramas a technique that you want to pursue, then that will likely influence the Focal Length that you'd more often find useful, I am guessing a longer, rather than a wider lens.

More thought along this line, I arrived at 45mm or 50mm. These two Focal Lengths concur with the thoughts you provided in Post #7.

It occurs to me that you might be dismissing (or originally overlooked) the TS-E 45, because of the newer TS-E 50: there could be several reasons for this and your comment on this point would be useful.

Bill

[odds]

...if we need extra DOF, we can always use focus stacking for non moving subjects.

I never had much success focus stacking images showing foliage, not even when I believe there is no wind.

When I think of it, I probably more often use tilt to throw things out of focus, at least with my 85mm. Tilting/swinging the plane of focus allows me to isolate in a way not otherwise possible. I can blur in post, but I happen to like the effect of tilt/swing better. In fact, I am not sure tilt brings me extra DOF, I am just able to place the DOF differently.

--
Odd S.

[george013]

I've been searching for an explanation of what the tilt/shift does and how it works. The shift is no problem, easy to understand. The tilt is more difficult to use and understand.
One of the things I found is that the tilts function doesn't give you a deeper dof. It's playing with the subject plane. Normally this is parallel to the sensor. It can also be used to prevent perspective distortion like the shift function. A nice visual explanation was this site http://cow.mooh.org/tilt-shift-a-diy...nses-work.html.

When I'm right, the argument of to less pixel when printing is only valuable when there's a shortage of pixels in relation the the pint size?

I don't have a tilt/shift and never used one. But I still have my doubts if it's wise to spend that money just for landscape photography.

George

[William W]

I've been searching for an explanation of what the tilt/shift does and how it works. . . .

For your research, bolded words are technically correct -

In simple terms when any Canon “Tilt Shift” (TS-E) Lens is mounted on a camera (as it is sent from the factory) it will emulate the Front Standard Movements on a Field Camera, View Camera or other Technical Camera.

There is much on the www about Camera Movements and in this regard if you want more depth than Manfred’s concise/practical summary, this time I’d recommend Wikipedia as you first stop - [LINK]

WW

[William W]

An overview of the operations - Canon EOS (i.e. EF Mount) TS-E Lenses:

Points 1. and 2. refer to how the lens operates if used as it is sent from the factory.

1.
The Canon “Shift” Movement will either emulate (front) Rise and Fall, or Shift on a View Camera
Rise and Fall is an up and down movement, parallel to the Film or Sensor Plane.
Shift is a left or right movement, parallel to the Film or Sensor Plane.
When the Canon "Shift" Movement is used, it is either emulating Rise and Fall, or Shift, depending upon the Lens’s orientation to the Horizon. If the camera is held in the Landscape Position, then the Canon "Shift" movement will be Rise and Fall

2.
The Canon “Tilt” Movement either emulates (front) Tilt or Swing on a View Camera.
Tilt is a movement taking the lens off axis in the vertical plane. (i.e. tilting up or down)
Swing is a movement taking the lens off axis in the horizontal plane. (i.e. swinging left or right)
When the Canon “Tilt” Movement is used, it is either emulating Tilt, or Swing, depending upon the Lens’s orientation to the Horizon. If the camera is held in the Landscape Position, then the Canon "Tilt" movement will be Swing.

Points 3. 4. and 5. refer to additional functions on TS-E Lenses:

3.
The older EOS TS-E Lenses (24, 45 & 90) were sent from the factory such that the Canon “Tilt” and “Shift” Movements were set at 90° to each other. This meant that when the lens was mounted on the camera, and the camera was held in LANDSCAPE ORIENTATION, the Canon “Shift” movement emulated Rise and Fall and the Canon “Tilt” movement emulated Swing.

With the Camera in PORTRAIT ORIENTATION, Canon "Shift" movement emulates Shift and Canon "Tilt" emulates Tilt.

To change the physical relationship between the Canon “Tilt” and “Shift” movements, from the factory set 90° opposition to each other, to parallel to each other, required taking the lens apart and DIY or sending it in to Canon to make the change.

The lens had to be reassembled with Canon “Tilt” and “Shift” in either one of the above mentioned two relationships (i.e. no intermediate position is easily possible to achieve).

4.
The newer TS-E Lenses (17, 24MkII, 50Macro, 90Macro and 135Macro) allow what Canon describes as “TS Rotation” allowing any relative orientation of Canon "Tilt and Canon "Shift" from 90° to each other, to parallel to each other with a click stop at 45°, AND any position in between the click stop can be used.

5.
All TS-E Lenses have a Rotation Function that allows the lens to be rotated (spun around) the Lens Mount, through 30° click stops, but the lens can be used in any rotated position, not necessarily at the click stops only.

Points 4 and 5 especially allow a great flexibility of applying the Canon “Shift” or “Tilt” at a variety of positions relative to the Subject /Scene.

Point 4 is an especially desirous feature for those who want to exploit this flexibility, in which case ruling out all of the older three TS-E lenses for any serious consideration, if maximum flexibility is a priority criterion.

WW

[george013]

For your research, bolded words are technically correct -

In simple terms when any Canon “Tilt Shift” (TS-E) Lens is mounted on a camera (as it is sent from the factory) it will emulate the Front Standard Movements on a Field Camera, View Camera or other Technical Camera.

There is much on the www about Camera Movements and in this regard if you want more depth than Manfred’s concise/practical summary, this time I’d recommend Wikipedia as you first stop - [LINK]

WW

In that wikipedia article the effects of shift are visualized. But not the more difficult part: the tilt.

George

[Manfred M]

In that wikipedia article the effects of shift are visualized. But not the more difficult part: the tilt.

George

The tilt is much harder to show in a diagram because it affect depth of field. Depth of field and the associated out of focus areas are determined by the distance between the camera and the subject for a given aperture setting. Because with a normal lens, the front element is parallel to the sensor plane, the focus plane is parallel to the sensor and the corresponding softness in front of and behind the focus plane.

When we tilt the front element of the lens, the focus plane is no longer perpendicular to the camera sensor, but rather at the angle of the camera's front element, so the the in and out of focus areas are dependent on the aperture and the tilt angle.

Sean explains things here:

https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tu...ft-lenses2.htm

[george013]

The tilt is much harder to show in a diagram because it affect depth of field. Depth of field and the associated out of focus areas are determined by the distance between the camera and the subject for a given aperture setting. Because with a normal lens, the front element is parallel to the sensor plane, the focus plane is parallel to the sensor and the corresponding softness in front of and behind the focus plane.

When we tilt the front element of the lens, the focus plane is no longer perpendicular to the camera sensor, but rather at the angle of the camera's front element, so the the in and out of focus areas are dependent on the aperture and the tilt angle.

Sean explains things here:

https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tu...ft-lenses2.htm

Both the link I posted and yours to the tutorials here did succeed to visualize what's happening. I didn't know there was a tutorial here.
Basic tilting the lens is tilting the focal/subject plane. Sensor, lens and focal plane are meeting each other. Normally at infinity. But by tilting the lens that point is coming closer. Dof is a third dimension added to that 2 dimensional focal plane.


It's confusing when people mention the bigger dof that can be gained with a tilt lens as a main advantage.

George

[odds]

...It's confusing when people mention the bigger dof that can be gained with a tilt lens as a main advantage.

I have always liked Harold Merklinger's writings on the subject. I have some of it on paper, but I just googled his name and found a page with links to his work: http://www.trenholm.org/hmmerk/HMbook14.html as it once appeared in Shutterbug.

Other than wishing a good read, I can not add anything to it.

It is perhaps worth a comment that drawings are mostly side views. When you see crossing lines (planes) with the intersection referred to as a line (Scheimpflug line, Hinge line), rather than the point it appears to be, that "point" is said line as seen from one end.

--
Odd S.

[Manfred M]

It's confusing when people mention the bigger dof that can be gained with a tilt lens as a main advantage.

If people are saying that the DoF is bigger, then they are incorrect. The DoF is different because the lens changes the orientation of the focus plane.

[Donald]

Donald,

I was thinking on this topic over the weekend. (I think it is very important that we all spend your money, wisely.) . . .

Yes, there is something satisfying in spending other people's money.

Seriously, I was thinking on Manfred's comments (Post #13) concerning Panoramas. If you consider Panoramas a technique that you want to pursue, then that will likely influence the Focal Length that you'd more often find useful, I am guessing a longer, rather than a wider lens.

I am not into panoramas, Bill, and always strive to make an image from one frame.

More thought along this line, I arrived at 45mm or 50mm. These two Focal Lengths concur with the thoughts you provided in Post #7.

It occurs to me that you might be dismissing (or originally overlooked) the TS-E 45, because of the newer TS-E 50: there could be several reasons for this and your comment on this point would be useful.

I was overlooking the 45mm because of the existence of the 50mm. However, your post earlier in the thread helped me make up my mind. Something which I had seen done, but didn't pay much attention to, but which came right back into my sight when you mentioned it:- The 24mm + 1.4 Extender. That gives me, effectively, a Tilt & Shift at two focal lengths.

This thread has gone off at a different angle, which is fine, but my original question has been more than adequately answered and I thank you, Bill, and the others for that.

[Polar01]

Just going to point out one thing, Donald you are a square man, however your camera is 2 units high by 3 units long. With the use of a tilt/shift you could easily get 3 units H by 3 units W (Oh look a square) with a simple stitch in Photoshop. just thinking and that hurts my brain.

Cheers: Allan

[William W]

. . . Something which I had seen done, but didn't pay much attention to, but which came right back into my sight when you mentioned it:- The 24mm + 1.4 Extender. That gives me, effectively, a Tilt & Shift at two focal lengths. . .

I have used both of the TS-E 24mm lenses.

Especially if you are considering using a Canon Extender EF, IMO it is imperative that it is used with the TS-E 24mm F/3.5 MkII: - not the original version.

Additionally the x1.4 Extender EF MkIII is a better performer than the MkII version; (although, as I already own a x1.4 Extender EF MkII I use it with my TS-E 17mm and I cannot see the value for me to upgrade and buy the MkIII version extender, I don’t use my extender much nowadays, anyway).

Additionally the TS-E 24 F/3.5 MkII version will afford you the extra flexibility, as I outlined in Point 4, Post #28.

Good luck with your choice,

Bill

[Donald]

The final question I had before pressing the 'buy' button is:- How does it rate as a lens for infrared photography? Kolari Vision has one of the more comprehensive datasets for which lenses are good and which are not good, in terms of producing hot spots.

Unfortunately, the Canon TS-E 24 mm f3.5 L II is in the list of 'Poor Performers', as is the 45mm.

More thinking to be done. I have sent an e-mail to one person who I know will give me the answer, Michael Pilkington of 'aspect2i' training, with whom I have now done two courses.

I may/will change as time goes along, but, at the moment, I am doing more infrared work than 'normal' light work.

[William W]

I think that the 'movements' in any TS-E Lens will make IR hot-spots quite problematic to reduce/eliminate.

WW

[Donald]

I think that the 'movements' in any TS-E Lens will make IR hot-spots quite problematic to reduce/eliminate.

Yep. I've heard back from Michael Pilkington too.

I think my purchase of a Tilt and Shift will go on hold permanently. I'll go looking for something else to waste my money on.

[chaman]

With the advancements in software nowadays.....could it replace, at least in part, what the tilt shift lens does? Always wonder that...