Lightroom labels and the stage reached in developing

[Rufus]

First some background.

I have recently decided to embrace Lightroom and its catalog. I have spent time importing photos taken in the last year, converting them from RAW to DNG, pruning and tagging them.

I also decided to ask LR to automatically adjust them on import to reflect the auto settings on the Basic panel, but leave the white balance as shot. This way is just a way to get a bit more punch into the previews rather like a Jpeg from the camera might have. Dull previews of the unprocessed RAW files might lead me to delete the lot

The filtering on tags is fantastic. I can now find all my family photos, and individual people, all my Iceland photos, etc. at the click of a mouse.

I have started to create some collections and smart collections which are also a great facility to have.

I also have a system for the star ratings that I am ready to implement when time allows (ie next year!): Standout, Good, Technically Competent, Flawed and Delete.

However, there are a number of uncertainties that still exist which I hope you can help with; but I had better confine myself to one per thread or it could get unwieldy!

I feel I need to identify how far I have processed an image as I import lots of images but do not fully process them all.

I am thinking of using the coloured labels to indicate the stage of processing so it is immediately apparent:

Red = Imported with the basic auto settings referred to above. This flag could be added automatically on import.
Yellow = Quickly processed, either manually or using the Quick Develop tool in the Library module. (Although I have yet to learn about the latter.)
Green = Fully processed for screen viewing.
Blue = spare label for now
Violet = Possible use: Versions with reduced image size.

Q1. How would I save a version with a reduced image size in LR? If it was PS I would just save as a different filename, but I want to maintain the integrity of the LR catalog.

Q2. Would you be inclined to include different or additional workflow steps in such a labeling system? I hope your experience may help me refine my ideas.

Q3. Alternatively, is there a more important use for the coloured labels? What do you use the flags for?

As always, I shall really appreciate your thoughts on this.

[Shadowman]

David,

As you've stated that you are cataloging RAW/DNG files the file name (ext) won't change if you've done nothing to the image, once you start editing (Developing) you'll need to convert to (PSD, TIFF, or jpeg) so I would rename the file with the type of edits done on the image, after you've established a work flow, you might start combining a series of edits into one particular file name. If your one file contains a series of different edits you can always delete some out of the series as it is quite easy to start from scratch on any particular image.

[pnodrog]

Q1 When I want different versions of the same original file (such as crop, B&W converted etc) I save them as virtual copies before developing them. The actual size will depend on how I export them.

Q2 In the libary module you will see in the bottom right-hand corner symbols that give a very basic indication of the processes that have been applied to the image. However using the colour tags will allow you to indicate in more detail if required.

Q3 I used the colour as a basic indicator of how the photo has progressed or will be used. For me green means it has been processed to an acceptable standard and yellow that it has been (or will be) exported for sending to another party. The rating, stars and colour flags give me far more options than I use but I am sure there will be professional photographers and organisations that have defined them very specifically and use them extensively.

[pschlute]

I have recently decided to embrace Lightroom and its catalog. I have spent time importing photos taken in the last year, converting them from RAW to DNG.

First off the pedant in me must point out that .DNG is a raw file. I guess you mean convert from your camera's native raw file to DNG ?


Anyway, I agree with you on the usefulness of using collections and tags. Remember however that if you have a few versions of the same file number .... 1234.DNG and 1234.jpg for example, placing one in a collection will not automatically add the other too.

Another useful tool is the Stack. My work-flow involves processing the DNG file in an external non-Adobe raw converter or Photoshop and creating a JPEG (and possibly an intermediate TIFF too). So I then import DNG; JPEG; and TIFF into LR for cataloguing. I will then "stack" the three files so that the JPEG is always on top. This means I only see the JPEG version in LR but if I want to see the other files I can simply expand the stack.

I have done little editing directly in LR so not really got my head around the concept of virtual files.

[DanK]

I'm a little confused by this.

As you've stated that you are cataloging RAW/DNG files the file name (ext) won't change if you've done nothing to the image, once you start editing (Developing) you'll need to convert to (PSD, TIFF, or jpeg)

This is incorrect, if you are talking about developing in LR. As long as you are developing in LR, you don't need to save an image at all. Edits are saved either in the catalog or in a tiny xml sidecar file. (The latter is safer, so it is my default.) So there is no reason to worry about reduced size: all that is present is the original raw file and the tiny xml file. If you are developing the image in more than one way, then the simplest approach--again, as long as your developing is in LR--is Paul's: just make a virtual copy.

People argue about this endlessly, but I have been using LR for years, and I have never seen any benefit in converting raw files to DNG. It doesn't in any way improve Lightroom's performance. If Canon goes out of business, I can batch-convert my raw files then, but I suspect Canon will be here a lot longer than I will.

My workflow is simpler. I import my raw files as CR2 files. I have LR set to save edits to "sidecar" (XML) files, which adds a good bit of safety: if your catalog gets corrupted beyond repair and restoring it loses edits to the most recent files, it's no problem: the edits will be incorporated into a new catalog. (I don't think the history panel populates, however). If I use an external editor--Photoshop, Xerene, and Nik are the ones I most often use--I save the resulting file into LR as a 16-bit prophoto TIFF. Photoshop does that automatically; with Zerene, I have to import the new file. I leave those as is and never reduce their size. I rarely have any use for a reduced size image. For posting online, I just use a link from Smugmug and specify the size when creating the link. For printing, the software resizes on the fly.

I don't make sufficient use of the color flags. I should do more, but I don't think I would go as far as you did. I think my main use would be to flag images for which I haven't finished an initial edit. LR doesn't make this obvious, as even a single edit turns on the little edit icon in the lower right. However, my view of this sort of thing is that everyone needs to figure out what system is best for them. I haven't gotten there yet, despite years of using the software.

[Shadowman]

Dan, people convert RAW to DNG when LR or some other program doesn't support the camera, everything else in my response to the OP was related to how he is currently using the program.

[Rufus]

David,

As you've stated that you are cataloging RAW/DNG files the file name (ext) won't change if you've done nothing to the image, once you start editing (Developing) you'll need to convert to (PSD, TIFF, or jpeg) so I would rename the file with the type of edits done on the image, after you've established a work flow, you might start combining a series of edits into one particular file name. If your one file contains a series of different edits you can always delete some out of the series as it is quite easy to start from scratch on any particular image.

Thanks for commenting John.

I should have probably have clearer in my OP. On import I am converting Canon's CR2 files to DNG. So the file name (eg IMG_1234) remains the same, but with a .DNG extension.

My understanding is that if I edit solely in Lightroom the unedited file remains in the DNG format and a sidecar .xmp file contains all the edits. The two toegther are required to generate the edited image.

If I go on to edit in Photoshop it should create a PSD file (because that is the Photoshop file format). I am not sure whether at that point the .xmp edits become "hard baked" into the background layer.

Having processed the image in Photoshop I would then save it, which automatically passes it back to Lightroom as a TIFF because that retains the layers and (I hope) I have set up Lightroom and Photoshop to pass files between them in that way. In doing so the TIFF file is named something like IMG_1234-Edit_1.

I have not yet fathomed out what would happen if I then reopen the photo in Lightroom.

As for renaming a file as processing proceeds, this is what I used to do in Phoptoshop before I started using Lightroom. I would save the PSD file with explanations included in the file name eg IMG_1234 (phone line removed), IMG_1234 (sky replaced), IMG_1224 (horse moved) etc. I am not sure how this can be done in Lightroom; but snapshots offer a potential method by using the words in brackets as a descriptive part of the snapshot name.

[Shadowman]

David,

When I started using Elements/Lightroom I got my hands on a copy of Scott Kelby's PS/Elements/LR (whichever version you have) and followed along with Kelby's method of saving files. One portion of the book does describe how to get images from LR to PS and then back again to LR, you can set how files are handled in Preferences and Kelby describes a simple keystroke that will place the edited file back into LR right alongside the original. I'd get the book or check out some of Kelby's videos, his workflow is easy to follow and overtime you'll modify it to fit your style.

[Rufus]

Q1 When I want different versions of the same original file (such as crop, B&W converted etc) I save them as virtual copies before developing them. The actual size will depend on how I export them.

Q2 In the libary module you will see in the bottom right-hand corner symbols that give a very basic indication of the processes that have been applied to the image. However using the colour tags will allow you to indicate in more detail if required.

Q3 I used the colour as a basic indicator of how the photo has progressed or will be used. For me green means it has been processed to an acceptable standard and yellow that it has been (or will be) exported for sending to another party. The rating, stars and colour flags give me far more options than I use but I am sure there will be professional photographers and organisations that have defined them very specifically and use them extensively.

Thank you for your answers Paul.

Q1 I can see the benefit of virtual copies to allow different final versions, all starting from the original image. If you export a file, does that mean it is outside of the catalog? If I want to save a file with smaller dimensions, say for a club competition, would I have to export it to a disk location and manage that through Windows File Explorer rather than the catalog? That seems to defeat the purpose of the catalog as the sole management system for my photos.

Q3 The colour you use as an indicator sounds like the label colours I am thinking of using for how far the editing has prgressed. Is there another colouring system. The appear to be only two flags, and these might be useful as temporary flags, but as far as I can tell they are not saved in the xmp file.

[Rufus]

First off the pedant in me must point out that .DNG is a raw file. I guess you mean convert from your camera's native raw file to DNG ?

Yes indeed I am converting from Canon's .CR2 to Adobe's .DNG format.

Anyway, I agree with you on the usefulness of using collections and tags. Remember however that if you have a few versions of the same file number .... 1234.DNG and 1234.jpg for example, placing one in a collection will not automatically add the other too.

I intend only shooting RAW in future, so any .jpg files will have been generated via Lightroom, presumably via the Export module and still managed via the catalog.

Another useful tool is the Stack. My work-flow involves processing the DNG file in an external non-Adobe raw converter or Photoshop and creating a JPEG (and possibly an intermediate TIFF too). So I then import DNG; JPEG; and TIFF into LR for cataloguing. I will then "stack" the three files so that the JPEG is always on top. This means I only see the JPEG version in LR but if I want to see the other files I can simply expand the stack.

Thank you, I have come across the Stack and I shall store this for future reflection as I think aspects may be appropriate for my own workflow in due course.

Thank you for your comments.

[Rufus]

David,

When I started using Elements/Lightroom I got my hands on a copy of Scott Kelby's PS/Elements/LR (whichever version you have) and followed along with Kelby's method of saving files. One portion of the book does describe how to get images from LR to PS and then back again to LR, you can set how files are handled in Preferences and Kelby describes a simple keystroke that will place the edited file back into LR right alongside the original. I'd get the book or check out some of Kelby's videos, his workflow is easy to follow and overtime you'll modify it to fit your style.

Thank you for the pointer, John. I viewed a video of a Scott Kelby presentation a few months back which was very good and pitched at my level, so I will have a look for his books, too.

[Rufus]

Thank you for your comments Dan.

I was imprecise with my language, as the file size is not the issue; I should have said the image size.

I agree the CR2/DNG debate is a bit irrelevant.

I will consider what you have said about your workflow and how that might inform mine. I am trying to develop and document mine at present to make it more intentional than random.

[Cantab]

David, my workflow is for all practical purposes identical to how Dan described his. It works well for me.

[Rufus]

David, my workflow is for all practical purposes identical to how Dan described his. It works well for me.

Bruce, thank you for commenting. While my workflow will no doubt be tweaked over time, it would be better for me to start off on the right foot and avoid any potentail pitfalls. So it is good to know how other people approach it. Thank you, and Dan, for sharing yours.

[pnodrog]

Thank you for your answers Paul.

Q1 I can see the benefit of virtual copies to allow different final versions, all starting from the original image. If you export a file, does that mean it is outside of the catalog? If I want to save a file with smaller dimensions, say for a club competition, would I have to export it to a disk location and manage that through Windows File Explorer rather than the catalog? That seems to defeat the purpose of the catalog as the sole management system for my photos.

Q3 The colour you use as an indicator sounds like the label colours I am thinking of using for how far the editing has prgressed. Is there another colouring system. The appear to be only two flags, and these might be useful as temporary flags, but as far as I can tell they are not saved in the xmp file.

When you Export you will see an option to add the exported image to the catalog. I seldom add it to the catalog as for most exports I use presets I have saved (facebook, CinC, club comp, canvas print, etc) and the size and folder etc are defined by the preset. I add a keyword to the library image it is derived from to indicate it has been used for a particular type of export. Occasionally I try to re-export an image using a particular preset and provided it is to the same folder I am asked if I wish to overwrite the existing image.

I have sometimes thought it would be useful to make a separate LR Catalog for exported images but most (certainly the larger images for one off printing) I delete to save room as I can always generate them again. Overall I try and avoid (other than via virtual copies) having too many versions of the same image saved in different folders. I used to do it but found if I went back sometime latter I had to reassure myself as to which one I should be using. Provided you do regular backups the worst that should happen is you need to re-export from the appropriate virtual image using the appropriate preset.

As I have never used all the colour indicator flags I have not looked for alternatives. I do use the reject flag on images that look promising as thumbnails but have a fault that renders it unsuitable to be used as a main image. Once or twice I have used them as a cloning source when editing in photoshop. Complete failures get deleted from disk.

[DanK]

My understanding is that if I edit solely in Lightroom the unedited file remains in the DNG format and a sidecar .xmp file contains all the edits. The two toegther are required to generate the edited image.

Yes, that is correct.

If I go on to edit in Photoshop it should create a PSD file (because that is the Photoshop file format). I am not sure whether at that point the .xmp edits become "hard baked" into the background layer.

Yes, or a layered TIFF file. I generally use TIFF. And yes, either way, once LR creates the PSD or TIFF, the parametric edits in the xml file are baked into the PSD or TIFF file.

Having processed the image in Photoshop I would then save it, which automatically passes it back to Lightroom as a TIFF because that retains the layers and (I hope) I have set up Lightroom and Photoshop to pass files between them in that way.

That's what I do.

I have not yet fathomed out what would happen if I then reopen the photo in Lightroom.

You can do more parametric edits, but they are applied to the TIFF that you have brought back into LR. You will create a new xml file that is attached to the TIFF, not the original raw DNG or CR2 file. If you look in a file manager, you'll see that. I do this frequently.

As for renaming a file as processing proceeds, this is what I used to do in Phoptoshop before I started using Lightroom. I would save the PSD file with explanations included in the file name eg IMG_1234 (phone line removed), I

When editing in LR, you can create a named snapshot at any point in the editing.

[Manfred M]

Yes, or a layered TIFF file. I generally use TIFF. And yes, either way, once LR creates the PSD or TIFF, the parametric edits in the xml file are baked into the PSD or TIFF file.

With one kind of / sort of exception and that is if one opens the file in Photoshop as a SmartObject. If this is done, one can go back and make changes using Adobe Camera Raw by double clicking on image layer. Note - this does not open the Photoshop Camera Raw Filter, but rather Camera Raw itself.

[Rufus]

With one kind of / sort of exception and that is if one opens the file in Photoshop as a SmartObject. If this is done, one can go back and make changes using Adobe Camera Raw by double clicking on image layer. Note - this does not open the Photoshop Camera Raw Filter, but rather Camera Raw itself.

Manfred, thank you for introducing the concept of Smart Objects. I had come across these but not yet investigated them in depth. If I double click the image layer in a Smart Object as you describe, would the new Camera Raw edits be added to a new xmp file or would they be added to the xmp file that relates to the image that was opened in Photoshop?

I presume that opening for HDR or other multiple/composite uses would not be suited to opening as Smart Objects. So putting those methods to one side to consider a single image, when would one prefer not to use a Smart Object? If Smart Objects offer additional functionality/flexibility would they not be the best default for a workflow?

[DanK]

when would one prefer not to use a Smart Object? If Smart Objects offer additional functionality/flexibility would they not be the best default for a workflow?

This pushes to the edge of what I know, so others will have to fill in and perhaps correct me, but...

The functionality you get by opening as a smart object is exactly the editing functionality one has in Lightroom, but with a somewhat different interface. The reason to move to Photoshop is to get access to things that one can't do with that parametric editing engine.

So, if you are sure that you have done what you can with that engine, there isn't any benefit to opening as a smart object. However (someone correct me if I am wrong), there would be an advantage if the edits you do in photoshop (not as a smart object) suggest changes to the parametric edits you had already done, I think opening as a smart object would let you make those changes by returning to the base layer, which is a smart object rather than a regular layer.

However, there are two things I don't know about this and haven't had time to check.

First, if you use the Edit-in (ctrl-E) function in LR to move an image to photoshop, it automatically opens as a photoshop image file and not as a smart object. If you use this method to open in PS and then save (not save_as), photoshop will send the edited image back to LR, and LR automatically imports it and adds it to the catalog. I don't know if there are settings that would allow you to do this while opening as a smart object. Someone here may know.

Second, I assume (again, someone correct me if I am wrong) that if you open as a smart object in PS and then save the edited image in LR, this does not change the edit history in LR. That is, I assume you would end up with two images--the first being the combination of raw file and xml file that you sent to PS, and a second that is a PSD or TIFF that includes the parametric as well as nonparametric edits one did in PS.

[Manfred M]

Manfred, thank you for introducing the concept of Smart Objects. I had come across these but not yet investigated them in depth. If I double click the image layer in a Smart Object as you describe, would the new Camera Raw edits be added to a new xmp file or would they be added to the xmp file that relates to the image that was opened in Photoshop?

That is correct, the .xmp file data is updated so the next time the raw data is opened in either Adobe Camera Raw or Lightroom, the edits done as a smart object will have been applied.

I presume that opening for HDR or other multiple/composite uses would not be suited to opening as Smart Objects. So putting those methods to one side to consider a single image, when would one prefer not to use a Smart Object? If Smart Objects offer additional functionality/flexibility would they not be the best default for a workflow?

The main advantage of using a Smart Object / Smart Filter (both are effectively the same thing) is that it adds a non-destructive way of preserving filter and edit information, much the way that Lightroom does. This applies to both native filters that are part of Photoshop like sharpening and blur as well as add-on filters like the Nik Collection.

The downside is that much like in Lightroom, the edits have to be reapplied whenever certain changes are made and that can slow down the overall operation.