choice of papers

[DanK]

I have been exploring new papers, with an eye to archival prints. I like a cold paper for many purposes, but that usually entails OBAs.

I just read two articles about papers on Luminous Landscape, and I would be interested in the opinions of others who have printed more than I have.

The first is an old (2011) article by Mark Dubovoy in which he raved about a paper that Charles Cramer pointed out to him: Canson Infinity Platine Fibre Rag. It's entirely archival, with no OBAs but with a very white cast. It has a coated surface, so it behaves somewhat like a luster or satin paper. It's VERY expensive, but he praised it so strongly that I just ordered a little box of 8 1/2 x 11 to try.

The second is a very interesting article by Alain Briot about the papers he uses for specific purposes. Briot discusses several attributes of papers but not OBAs. One of his arguments is that everything looks somewhat glossy if placed under glass, so he doesn't generally use textured papers for that purpose. Moreover, he considers resistance to curling a primary consideration for this use. For that reason, he prefers a plastic coated paper, and his standard paper is Epson Premium Luster. I assume this has OBAs, as every luster or satin paper I have tried does.

So, this suggests a tradeoff. A paper free of OBAs won't show the deterioration that comes when the OBAs degrade. But if Briot is right, resin coated papers are less likely to develop problems because of humidity-induced curling.

Any opinions about which is the better route? I hope to put some prints on sale this year, and I would like them to be as resistant to deterioration as I can make them.

Thanks.

Dan

[Shadowman]

I use both papers and love the look and texture of Canson Platine, it has similar appearance to Baryta papers. I have a similar affection for Luster but use each sparingly based on the particular print I'm making and size, I'm more likely to use 8.5" x 11.0" more than the larger sizes. An additional comment on each is I've never used any of the three in roll format as I believe that will create a curling issue prior to even getting to the drying stage.


Regarding OBA's I don't concern myself too much with this issue, however I'm more likely to choose a paper which has least amount. I follow the commentary of Steinmueller and Guelbins regarding OBAs and they state: OBAs fade a period of time, especially under UV light (obvious workaround there), not all papers with OBAs fade at the same rate, some bright white papers , allowing high contrast, need OBAs, the amount of OBAs might also vary from one batch to batch. Additional issues stated are that OBAs interfere with the creation of color profiles but you can use a device such as X-Rite's Match and Profile Maker to recognize OBAs and correct the profile.

So regarding your question, you have to choose between papers with OBAs or a particular texture, if you go the non/minimal OBA route there are other options for getting the same or similar texture through the use of resin coatings (Matte or Glossy).

[Manfred M]

I've had conversations with a number of other photographers who print and they all have different philosophies when it comes to paper selection. Subject matter plays a significant role in paper selection; portraits work very well on matte papers. Some landscapes work very well with those too. If you start getting into images with highly saturated colours, for instance some of the flower shots that you do, then papers with a glossier finish tend to have a wider gamut and these might be more appropriate.

The other comment I've had from some photographers is they will select the papers that will give them a premium look for the sale, so a higher grammage paper with OBAs will result in an image that presents itself better, even if it has a slightly reduced life. Another photographer I know always sprays his prints with an anti-fade lacquer because this effectively doubles print life and not only protects prints from UV but from environmental contaminants as well, which can have an even larger effect on print life than UV. Framing being glass (even non-UV resistant glass) adds an additional layer of protection as does using acid-free archival mattes and backing material.

The two master printers in town both swear by Epson Hot Press Bright and I really like it and the Natural as well.

Another comment I have heard from printers is that they classify papers into broad "grades"; A, B and C. A "C" grade paper is something one might run through an laser printer. Some of the cheapest inkjet papers fall into that category and I do use Epson Presentation Matte as a proofing paper as I can get a lot of information out of it without having to test with the expensive Hot Press or Cold Press papers that I do use. I look at the paper Briot mentions, the Epson Ultrapremium Lustre" as a "B" paper and use it as my "go to" paper for run of the mill printing (i.e. when I do "time for prints" work with a model. It is also a fairly good proxy for test prints on some of the higher end baryta papers for proofing, again at a much lower cost. This paper contains OBAs and is not archival, so only someone of Briot's calibre can get away with using it for images he sells. I did find some old wet darkroom prints that I did in the mid-1970s and found that the RC papers did yellow. I suspect that this might be the resin coating yellowing (polymers tend to do that), but there could be other factors too, like poor washing. One of the big selling point of the RC papers back then was a reduced wash time.

The "A" papers I use tend to be archival cotton rag or baryta papers, with and without OBAs. I find with the matte papers, I do have to use white cotton gloves when handling them as they can discolour and stain when exposed to oils from my hands.

In addition to the Epson Ultra Premium Luster, I find that I tend to stick with Epson Hot Press and Cold Press papers in either the bright or natural finish (OBAs being the only difference). For a baryta, I'm quite happy with the Canson Baryta Photographique and use that when I need an "A" paper with a bit of luster. I saw some high key work on Japaense Washi (rice) paper, so that is definitely on my list of things to try next. I know Ilford makes some and I believe some of the other paper companies (Moab) sell it as well.

I've also been experimenting with Hahnemühle papers. A lot of high end printers swear by them, but I haven't found one I absolutely love yet. I bought some sample packs and plan to do some experimentation when I get back from South America. I also have a sample pack of the Epson Legacy papers I want to test. I've tried sampler packs from both Red River and Moab and have not been super impressed by either line.

I have not run into any significant curling problems as to date I have only used sheet paper. I bought a roll feed for my Epson SC P800 and have a roll of Epson Hot Press Bright and Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique ready to go. I have a project I want to complete by the end of April, so will probably have some comments on curling issues, especially as I get closer to the core on the rolls.

When I look at the Wilhelm Research site on print longevity, the test results for the new Epson UltraChrome HDx inks suggest that Hot Press Bright (with OBAs) has a longer life than Hot Pres Natural (without OBAs). Go figure...

[rudi]

As with a lot off things, paper choices are a highly subjectif matter.

For daily use, testprints, print on the fly I use mostly Epson Premium luster.

For better work Ilford Gold Fibre Silk has long been my go to paper. Due to supply-issues (a number off years ago), and on recommendation from my supplier I tried the (back then new to me) Canson papers. Which became my favourite paper ever since.

Canson Platine Fiber Rag is a very white, smooth Luster paper with a very fine micro stipple (don't know how to call it, one should feel it...). Canson Baryta Photographique is arguably not as white, but smoother, Glossy paper.
Very difficult to compare with Epson Premium Luster, which is extra smooth and has a bluish tinge.

Every now and than I try other papers, but I always seem to return to Canson.

In the past I mostly used C. Platine FR (or the like) for flowers and the like, but nowadays I print them often on Canson Rag Photographique, which is for me one off the nicest smooth matte papers I came across... So my taste seem to have changed over the years.

I use custom profiles, but unlike some other companies, the profiles provided by Canson are very good. And so far the quality off the paper has been very consistent over the years.

Every now and than I try other papers, but I always seem to return to Canson.

Let me add that I am in no way 'related' to Canson.

Printing from 61 and 112 cm rolls, curling is not really an issue for the papers I use most often.
This is off course another matter than humidity induced curling.

Edited to add: Those higher end papers do scratch easier...

[Astro]

I also favour Canson papers, using both Platine and also Baryta Photographique. I tend not to be too worried about OBAs since I have never really considered my images are likely to be of much interest to others a couple of generations down the line.

More recently though I have beeen producing 'hand crafted' photo books of my stained glass images.
This has required a bit of research for double-sided papers of good quality. After a bit of experimentation, I particularly like a double sided Matt 250 paper produced by Permajet.
It is an 'ultra' bright, white matt paper, very smooth, producing a very good image sharpness. I use it for colour but it is a rather good monochrome paper.
For photo books I want to produce, the extra weight 250gsm paper gives a more 'fine art' feel than the usual 'lighter' papers used in commercially photo books.

[DanK]

Thanks for the replies. This has forked into two discussions. I see now that the way I wrote and titled the OP almost guaranteed this. I think both are interesting and valuable. I don't know whether it is practical or worth splitting them.

The larger part is 'what papers do I choose, and for which purposes?' I think this is the more interesting thread, and it will probably be more useful to people, as the array of papers is huge, and it's expensive to sample.

The smaller part, which is what actually motivated my thread, is a narrower, technical question. We often read about the problems OBAs can cause for archival use--not only that they fade over time, but also that they can fade unevenly. This is a pain for those of us who like a very white paper, since most of them have OBAs. Most RC (resin-coated) papers do as well. I get dinged twice: I like a very white paper, and most of my printing is on luster papers, which are of course RC and have OBAs.

(I don't know whether other manufacturers do this as well, but Red River provides a list of papers that have either no OBAs or low OBA concentrations. I'll paste that at the bottom.)

What motivated my post is that Briot made no mention of OBAs and recommended RC papers--hence papers with OBAs--for prints to be displayed behind glass because the humidity changes under those circumstances can cause curling, which is less of a problem for RC papers. That led to my question: If you are framing behind glass and want longevity, is he right that OBAs are less of a problem than curling? For that matter, if a print is matted with an appreciable overlay, how can it curl? (I don't do borderless printing, and I generally size mats to have about 1/8 inch of overlay on the printed image, so I have a lot of material under the mat.)

BTW, re John's point about rolls of paper: that's a problem I don't have. when I read reviews of the Epson P800 and the Canon Prograf Pro 1000, most reviews said that they are very similar in output but listed a few advantages of one or the other. The only real disadvantage of the Prograf is that it doesn't take rolls. I bought the Prograf (which so far I love) for other reasons, so I can't use rolls.

From Drew Hendrix at Red River:

No OBA
Aurora Art Natural
Palo Duro Etching
Palo Duro Smooth
Blanco Satin Canvas

Low OBA
Aurora Art White
Palo Duro Satin
Polar Gloss Metallic
Polar Luster Metallic
San Gabriel Baryta Semigloss

[Manfred M]

What motivated my post is that Briot made no mention of OBAs and recommended RC papers--hence papers with OBAs--for prints to be displayed behind glass because the humidity changes under those circumstances can cause curling, which is less of a problem for RC papers.

Epson UltraPremium Luster is NOT an archival paper, so no mention of being acid free, unbleached (i.e. lignin free), pH buffered, etc. The paper base has been coated with polyethylene resin, which will yellow over time (all clear resins do, after the UV stabilizers deteriorate). If you look at the Epson Website, it's quite clear that the paper is primarily targeted at the retail market targeting wedding, portrait and school photographers.

https://epson.com/For-Home/Paper/Pho...ster/m/S041405

You also seem to suggest that Briot is referring to curl from humidity variations. I suspect this is not what he is writing about. I started printing with that paper about 8 years ago and the prints I have around (not framed and mounted) are as flat as they came off the printer. Briot likely prints using a roll feed, so that paper has a natural curl as it comes off the roll and out of the printer. That could be a problem, but there are commercial and home-made anti-curl tools out there to remove the curl. The fine art printers I know have confirmed what you have written that framing and matting prints generally solves the curl problem.

I suspect that the curl issue Briot is trying to address comes from using mailing tubes to ship his unmatted works to clients. They will want to mount and frame the prints and I suspect he has had issues with complaints about curl with these prints. RC papers tend to flatten reasonably well once they are out the the shipping tube. Other higher end (high grammage / thickness) papers will tend to retain the curl.

That led to my question: If you are framing behind glass and want longevity, is he right that OBAs are less of a problem than curling?

My understanding is that the most significant longevity issue start with non-archival papers is low pH, i.e. acidic, which comes from the paper production process. This breaks down the ink and paper fibres, especially the alpha cellulose that comes from wood made from trees. Lower quality papers contain lignin (the stuff that makes wood brown) and bleaching / colouring agents do break down over time and cause the paper to yellow.

Even if one uses archival papers, use of non-archival mattes (i.e. acid free) can cause issues, especially around the edges where the two materials come in contact with each other.

OBAs themselves, much like inkjet printer inks, have improved as had their longevity.

Environmental contaminants, not just UV cause ink and paper breakdown. Sealing the paper with a commercial varnish made for that purpose, putting the image behind glass and using UV resistant glass rather than normal glass all impact print life. Obviously selecting a display area that is not in direct sunlight helps too.

For that matter, if a print is matted with an appreciable overlay, how can it curl? (I don't do borderless printing, and I generally size mats to have about 1/8 inch of overlay on the printed image, so I have a lot of material under the mat.)

I think it depends on your mounting technique. When I mount prints, they are allowed to "float" between the backing board and matte board, so I generally don't see any issues. I have been told mounting a print rigidly to the mat board can cause issues with humidity changes and some papers seem to develop "waves", rather than curling. In the "old days" I used to dry mount (i.e. bond) the image to the backing board, but that practice seems to have gone out of fashion.

[DanK]

Very helpful. A few thoughts:

Re dry mounting: I routinely did that in my early wet-darkroom days. I was a student and didn't even think about paying for frames. It was simple enough; all one needed was sheets of foam-core mounting board, mounting paper, a clean piece of cloth to protect the paper, and a household iron. the problem now is that inkjet prints are far more easily damaged by heat. One has to tailor the maximum heat to the specific paper (and I think inks).

When I frame, I always let the print float. I suspend the print from the mat board at the top of the print using two or three pieces of archival tape. I haven't had any waves, etc., on prints framed this way, as long as they were printed on reasonably heavy stock. I usually use papers that are in the neighborhood of 300 gsm.

Re the other sources of degradation: understood. I use only acid-free materials, including backing boards, and archival tapes. I had been careful about the pH of papers, but I suspect I forgot to check in some instances. I'll go back over my stock and re-check.

Re sealing the print: what product do you use? One of the differences between the Prograf and the Epson P800 is that the Prograf automatically sprays a clear coat ("chroma optimizer") over the print. I believe this is primary intended to reduce bronzing, but I haven't checked whether it provides much protective value.

Re curling, here is what Briot wrote:

When framed under glass the delicate texture of a Baryta or a natural fiber paper disappears. While still there, it is virtually invisible to the eye. Under glass, everything looks glossy. This means that paper texture becomes of secondary importance. What is primary is print longevity and because a framed print leaves little room for paper to ‘breathe’ and expand or contract, having a paper that does not curl when exposed to humid or dry conditions is of primary importance. Therefore, rather than use a natural fiber paper I turn to a polyester base paper for framed prints. The paper surface may not be as exciting as natural paper or a Baryta surface but curling is prevented.

He follows that by saying that he uses Epson Premium Luster. I think this leaves me thinking that this is one piece of his advice that I will ignore.

My default luster paper has been Moab Lasal Exhibition Luster, although I am about to do A/B comparisons with a few of the newer Red River papers. Lasal is advertised as archival. It is acid free, with a neutral pH. It's wood-based: 100% alpha celulose. It has OBAs and is very bright white. Given that it is acid free, it might be a good substitute for the Epson paper.

[Manfred M]

Dry mounting disappeared when all the paper manufacturers switched to RC papers that could not take the heat, so far as I can remember. That was about the time I started university and had very time for photography in general and darkroom work specifically, so I'm not sure about how dry mounting evolved. I remember some spray on adhesives for the RC papers but I neve quite mastered the technique and tended to get the spray on the front side of the image, not just the back.

All of my prints are hanging in either my basement or the hallway leading into the basement, so UV and airborne contaminants are not an issue. The prints are generally mounted much in the same way that you describe and behind glass. Back in the days that I did treat my prints coming out of the wet colour darkroom, I used a product Agfa-Gevaert put out for their colour papers, but that was decades ago.

I've sent a note off to one of the master printers I know who does use a protective spray in his work and will let you know what he uses once I hear back from him.

[DanK]

Thanks.

I am not particularly concerned about photos hanging in my own house. Most are printed with dye inks. They may last longer than I do anyway, but if not, I'll just reprint them or replace them with something new.

However, I have a perhaps foolish notion that I will try to sell prints once I retire, more for the satisfaction of it than for the income, which I expect would be trivial. I want anything I sell to last a long time. That's one of the reasons I switched to pigment inks. Also, some of the prints I give away end up in the hands of younger people, and I would like the prints the get to last a long time.

Dry mounting disappeared when all the paper manufacturers switched to RC papers that could not take the heat, so far as I can remember. That was about the time I started university and had very time for photography in general and darkroom work specifically, so I'm not sure about how dry mounting evolved. I remember some spray on adhesives for the RC papers but I neve quite mastered the technique and tended to get the spray on the front side of the image, not just the back.

All of my prints are hanging in either my basement or the hallway leading into the basement, so UV and airborne contaminants are not an issue. The prints are generally mounted much in the same way that you describe and behind glass. Back in the days that I did treat my prints coming out of the wet colour darkroom, I used a product Agfa-Gevaert put out for their colour papers, but that was decades ago.

I've sent a note off to one of the master printers I know who does use a protective spray in his work and will let you know what he uses once I hear back from him.

[Manfred M]

Dan - this is the note I just got from Jim Lamont:

"Manfred,
Yes, I spray some of my prints with Hahnemuhle Protective Spray. Fiendishly expensive and guaranteed to give you brain cancer if you spray indoors. I buy it from Vistek, though Henry’s also carries it I think.

Specifically I spray my portfolio prints and any exhibition prints that are not put behind glass/plexi.

Sunlight will fade sprayed prints too. Perhaps purchase special glass that screens more UV?

Best wishes,
Jim"


Vistek and Henry's are Canadian camera store chains. He did tell me he does all his spraying outdoors.

This is what he uses:

https://www.hahnemuehle.com/en/digit...ive-spray.html

[DanK]

Manfred,

Thanks. I think I am set, since I rarely display other than behind glass.

I need to investigate further what protective functions, if any, chroma optimizer serves.

With any luck, my Canson paper will be here tomorrow, just in time for me to play around with it while waiting out a snowstorm this weekend.

Dam

[Shadowman]

Regarding roll papers, what are your favorites that don't give curling issues? I've only used two: Epson Poster Paper (175) which I use for test purposes, and Exhibition Canvas Satin which I use for portfolio/exhibit and final output. The Canvas Satin paper gives a texture and gloss very close to Baryta/Platine but also has a dimpled appearance when viewed up close.

[DanK]

Regarding roll papers, what are your favorites that don't give curling issues? I've only used two: Epson Poster Paper (175) which I use for test purposes, and Exhibition Canvas Satin which I use for portfolio/exhibit and final output. The Canvas Satin paper gives a texture and gloss very close to Baryta/Platine but also has a dimpled appearance when viewed up close.

I can't comment on roll papers, since I can't use any, but I think I can explain what you refer to as a dimpled appearance. If what you mean is a slightly pebbled surface, that has nothing to do with rolls; it is what "satin" typically refers to. I think the term in the trade is E-surface. Satin papers have less pronounced texture than luster papers. You can see this in the photos at this page, which has three different satin finishes and one luster. The few other manufacturers I am familiar with use the terms "satin" and "luster" in a similar manner.

[Manfred M]

Regarding roll papers, what are your favorites that don't give curling issues? I've only used two: Epson Poster Paper (175) which I use for test purposes, and Exhibition Canvas Satin which I use for portfolio/exhibit and final output. The Canvas Satin paper gives a texture and gloss very close to Baryta/Platine but also has a dimpled appearance when viewed up close.

I have a 50 ft roll of both Epson Hot Press Bright and Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique; two of my current favourite photo papers. I bought them in December when a couple of the national chains had photo paper on sale, so I stocked up. I bought and mounted the roll feed for my P800 printer at the same time, but have not used it yet.

I have a project in mind (a series of 5 B&W prints) in a 16:9 format for a competition in May and I will definitely be using the rolls for that. Four of the five images are ready to print, but I am still not all that happy with the 5th one, so more work to be done. I still have to buy the matte boards and cut them too because of the non-standard size.

Given my past experience with these types of paper, I definitely expect to see a curl issue that I should be able to correct by matting. If it is really problematic and I do a lot of my printing on roll stock, I will definitely have to look at investing in some decurling equipment.

[rudi]

Dan, I just read the article by Mark Dubovoy you are referring too . At the end he says:

While the color gamut of the Platine Fibre Rag is quite good, it is definitely not as good as the color gamut of Baryta Photographique. The same holds true in a comparison with Ilford Gold Fibre Silk. Note how the Baryta papers extend further into the more saturated reds, greens, purples and blues.

The real question is whether this is noticeable in practice. The answer isyes. If you are looking for a paper with electric reds, or super saturated blues, this is not the paper for you......

It was maybe true back than, but over the years, papers have changed, print technology has changed and I can say that for now, to me the answer is a definitif no, for most real life photographs. Most people will not notice any difference just by looking at the same prints on those papers. You can easily feel the difference between C.Platine and C Bar P.
My opinion is not scientific but based on usage. And I can fullheartly say that Ilford Gold Fiber Silk, Canson Barytha Photographique (and by extension Epson Legacy Baryta, and without any doubt there is a Red River Palo Duro, and others.... ) are strikingly similar (but not identical) in output/gamut, texture, and feel. Print out the same test targets on the different media, and they will be very dificult to tell from one another.
My point being: It doesn't matter which brand you choose, they all have high quality products.

....Given my past experience with these types of paper, I definitely expect to see a curl issue that I should be able to correct by matting. If it is really problematic and I do a lot of my printing on roll stock, I will definitely have to look at investing in some decurling equipment.

I have used a substantial amount off rolls over the years and never had curling issues. There will be a bit off curling, worse at the end off the roll ....maybe it all comes down to how one defines 'issues'.....

.... I will definitely have to look at investing in some decurling equipment.

Just revers roll the prints. I use an old roll with a few meters cheap paper on it, roll off the paper a meter longer that the print, lay the print on top, roll up again and leave it overnight....job done.

Regarding roll papers, what are your favorites that don't give curling issues? .... .

Canson Bar. Prestige is the best, heavy and stiff, just lays flat after printing. Canson Platine Fiber Rag, flattens overnight....worst is the Epson Premium Luster, which stay a bit curled after printing but flattens easily when reverse rolled...

[DanK]

Very interesting. I have never printed with a baryta paper, but I think it is time to try. I checked on Canson's website. they indicate that the Platine Fiber Rag has no OBA, while the Baryta Photographique has "very low OBA content." Hahnemuehle lists the OBA content of Photo Gloss Baryta as "yes" and of Photo Silk Baryta as "very low"

Canson provides CIE whiteness/tint estimates. They are:

Platine: 89, 12
Baryta: 99, 16

If I understand this right, the first number indicates that the Baryta is somewhat more reflective. I believe the second number is the tiny, and I assume that 16 indicates further towards the blue end of the blue-yellow axis, but perhaps someone can explain that.

[Manfred M]

Dan - If I remember my mineralogy correctly, barium sulphate (baryte) can be viewed as an OBA as it fluoresces under UV. It's what gives baryta papers their whiteness and reflectivity.

[Shadowman]

I can't comment on roll papers, since I can't use any, but I think I can explain what you refer to as a dimpled appearance. If what you mean is a slightly pebbled surface, that has nothing to do with rolls; it is what "satin" typically refers to. I think the term in the trade is E-surface. Satin papers have less pronounced texture than luster papers. You can see this in the photos at this page, which has three different satin finishes and one luster. The few other manufacturers I am familiar with use the terms "satin" and "luster" in a similar manner.

Dan,

Yes on the link provided that is what it looks like at close viewing, from a distance gives typical glossy appearance.

[Shadowman]

I have a 50 ft roll of both Epson Hot Press Bright and Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique; two of my current favourite photo papers. I bought them in December when a couple of the national chains had photo paper on sale, so I stocked up. I bought and mounted the roll feed for my P800 printer at the same time, but have not used it yet.

I have a project in mind (a series of 5 B&W prints) in a 16:9 format for a competition in May and I will definitely be using the rolls for that. Four of the five images are ready to print, but I am still not all that happy with the 5th one, so more work to be done. I still have to buy the matte boards and cut them too because of the non-standard size.

Given my past experience with these types of paper, I definitely expect to see a curl issue that I should be able to correct by matting. If it is really problematic and I do a lot of my printing on roll stock, I will definitely have to look at investing in some decurling equipment.

I printed only one panorama style (65" x 17") image since owning the printer, it wasn't your typical panorama but an almost life size image of a model. I believe you can still print a panorama on some printers which don't have the roll bar but sizes are limited.