Autofocus and musicians or conductor, Nikon D500/D5/D850

[brucehughw]

Hi, everyone.

I have a new Nikon D500 (thanks for advice from this forum), and plan to photograph a symphony, both while rehearsing and performing. Conductors move both smoothly and erratically, and keeping the face in focus is important. With all the AF settings available (dynamic area, group area, auto area (which engages face detection)), it's hard to know which will work best. I'm also going to be shooting some waitstaff in a diner, and want to keep their faces in focus. I'll try all the settings, but if anyone has been through this exercise (maybe with a lead singer or guitarist), I'd love to learn from your experience. Any suggestions?

Thanks, Bruce

[Manfred M]

Bruce - you are going to have to figure out which one works best for you. Continuous focus mode for sure. You might want to try the old trick that comes from the days before autofocus was invented; pre-focus to a particular place. Choose a reasonable aperture (and appropriate ISO) so that your subject will be in good focus in a reasonably wide zone. While conductors do move around, they tend to stand on a rostrum, so the movement area is really not all that large.

You could also decide on a framing and go to single focus point, but move that to where the conductor is so that you can force focus on him or her.

The problem with all of the other focus modes is that they can be fooled other people in the area and you could miss focus a lot.

Singers and guitarists tend to be fairly compact and don't flail around their arms. I have successfully used my back-button focus and recompose technique on musicians before.

[brucehughw]

Thanks, Manfred. The odd thing is that yes, they are on a rostrum (thanks for the new word), but while on that they can be mostly still and facing forward one minute, the next they can quickly turn to the side. Those side motions tend to be more dramatic. I'll head to a rehearsal and post results.

[DanK]

Bruce, based on the small amount of this I have done, I would second the suggestion of back-button focus and continuous focus. (In fact, I use back-button focus as a default and only switch it off when specific situations call for linking AF to the shutter.)

However, the best AF-point selection is camera-dependent. I would never let the camera choose the initial AF point, as other areas may have more contrast than the conductor's face. However, your camera may offer a number of reasonable choices. I don't know Nikons at all. However, to illustrate, my Canon has a mode that uses a single point initially but that can use 4 or 8 surrounding points to assist in maintaining focus if the subject moves. Moreover, it offers six different presets for the tracking parameters, one of which is specifically for subjects that move erratically. There may be similar options for your camera.

Dan

[brucehughw]

thanks, Dan. Yes, my D500 has many options (as I mentioned in the first email). Sounds like I'll just need to experiment.

[Manfred M]

Thanks, Manfred. The odd thing is that yes, they are on a rostrum (thanks for the new word), but while on that they can be mostly still and facing forward one minute, the next they can quickly turn to the side. Those side motions tend to be more dramatic. I'll head to a rehearsal and post results.

Depending on where you are shooting from, this can either be a relatively large movement (for instant if you are standing in a position that is perpendicular (beside them) to the way that they are moving. If you are more of less parallel to the conductor (i.e. standing straight in front or behind them) most of the head movement will be more or less parallel to the observer. The rostrum limits their movement (i.e. conductors rarely fall off it, but capturing that event would certainly make for some interesting images). The head of the conductor (which is the part you are looking to get a sharp image of) has a far more restricted motion range than their arms.

What you are doing is "event photography". Expect lots of images you will delete. That is very common in event photography. What how and where they are moving during the rehearsal as that will be a good proxy for the actual event.

[Hanginon]

You might want to try the old trick that comes from the days before autofocus was invented; pre-focus to a particular place. Choose a reasonable aperture (and appropriate ISO) so that your subject will be in good focus in a reasonably wide zone. While conductors do move around, they tend to stand on a rostrum, so the movement area is really not all that large.

I will second this - use back button focus prior to the shot. The problem with conductors and violinists is that they have a stick (baton, bow) in rapid movement that is often near their face.

[William W]

. . . if anyone has been through this exercise (maybe with a lead singer or guitarist), I'd love to learn from your experience. Any suggestions?

My experience ranges across low level Available Light Portraiture at Sports Events; Stage Productions and Music Events; Social Functions.

I assume that you cannot use Flash - if, in the unlikely event that you can use Flash, then please advise as the ability to use Flash is a game changer.

***

I am not commenting much on the AF that you choose to use: suffice to say (on Canon DSLR) I would use
> Back Button Focus
> Centre Focus Point
> AI Servo
> Technique - Focus and Focus Lock on Face, Recompose

There will be almost equivalents for the Nikon System and I don't know what exactly those names are.

Importantly though, I expect that the Nikon System will have "features" concerning the functionality of the Back Button. In Canon these features are user selected and are part of the "Custom Functions".

It is important if you choose use BBF, that you know exactly what to expect, when you use that back button.

***

Mainly my purpose is that I want to draw your attention to other considerations.

You can exploit the intrinsic DoF capacity of the APS-C sensor, whilst at the same time utilizing the very good high ISO performance of your D500 camera.

Assuming you will Frame in Portrait Orientation, then I suggest that:

> for an Half Shot, I suggest that you be at around F/8, which will provide you about 3’ (1mtr) of reasonable DoF

> for a Full Length Shot you be reasonably ‘safe’ at around F/2.8, that will provide you about 4’6” (1.5mtr) of reasonable DoF, but I'd probably be at F/3.2 or F/4.

> Additionally, if you Frame a little wider, with the intention of Cropping in Post Production, you leverage that DoF a tad more.

Depending upon the type of motion blur you might want, a Shutter Speed of around 1/320s should be reasonably safe to arrest the head movement of the Conductor for a Full Length Shot: if you can get to 1/500s at a reasonable ISO I would be at 1/500s. For an Half Shot, I’d definitely like to be at 1/500s or faster.

There is a lot of merit in the suggestions to choose NOT to have your AF in any servo mode, but rather to simply nail a point of Sharp Focus at the Head of the Conductor where s/he is generally located and let DoF do the work for you.

The (moving) waiters are a different kettle of kippers: try to nail them when they NOT moving toward you, at close proximity or tight framing that will create issues which are more easily overcome by not engaging in the first place. Typically waiters will stop to allow guests to take something form their tray or to provide the guest with something from their tray and in the normal course of work will have to momentarily pause to allow them to manoeuvre around object or people: this moment of pause is the time when you release the Shutter. A shutter speed of 1/320s~1/500s would be reasonably safe in most circumstances.

So, what you should glean is my advice is centred on making a primary selection an ISO that will allow for a RANGE of Apertures and Shutter Speeds to suit the job.

WW

[brucehughw]

Thanks!

I will second this - use back button focus prior to the shot. The problem with conductors and violinists is that they have a stick (baton, bow) in rapid movement that is often near their face.

[brucehughw]

Thanks very much, Bill. This is all very helpful. What about, however, AF-C (continuous), BBF on the conductor, and then relying on the AF to track the moving conductor? I've been out a bit with the now one-month-old camera and the AF (which I understand is Nikon's best) is pretty responsive. Any thoughts on what I propose?

Thanks again, Bruce

My experience ranges across low level Available Light Portraiture at Sports Events; Stage Productions and Music Events; Social Functions.

I assume that you cannot use Flash - if, in the unlikely event that you can use Flash, then please advise as the ability to use Flash is a game changer.

...
WW

[William W]

. . . AF-C (continuous), BBF on the conductor, and then relying on the AF to track the moving conductor? . . .

(I am not an expert on Nikon's Functionality, but I know a bit so this is a general answer not using Nikon-specific terminology):

If I chose to use that procedure, I'd set the AF Point off-centre, so it was the AF Point that would sit on the Conductor's centre chest when the images were Framed. What I mean is I would need to choose an AF point so that I did NOT USE "RECOMPOSE". I'd still frame a little wide with the view to Crop in Post Production.


I'd typically choose an AF Point near where the Tuxedo makes a line with the Shirt. I've had many discussions about this selection, the main argument against it has always been "but don't you want critical sharp focus on the eyes?" and my response is, for many (most) men and women, the eyes are usually always in about the same plane as that area of the chest. Why I like that hard contrast edge is because it is really easy for the AI to track on it, especially in low ambient light: I don't know about your camera specifically, but for my 5D series (and when I have used 1 Series) it works a treat. Additionally, I tend to always have a few inches fudge room because I'd tend to avoid extremely large apertures. The Orchestra (or whatever is behind the Conductor) will be more than a foot or two (300 ~ 600mm) behind and it will be rendered soft and OoF anyway.

If the clothing has not an hard contrast edge, such as a white shirt on black coat, then I'd choose an AF point that sits on the face.

One way is NOT better than the other: I gave you a list of how I'd typically do it, because that's how I typically do it. I have my Back Button set up so I can lock AF and Recompose the frame really quickly - because I have done it that way since forever, since when I only had Manual Focus lenses to do it I am reasonably quick - so I default to that method. Arguably, I might not use the advancement of AF systems to their limits, but on the other hand I still have an incredible adrenalin rush when I shoot on the hop, and when I am 'in the zone' it is a wonderful feeling and I really do know when I have nailed a good one and that gives me great joy.

I think, on the face of it, that the procedure that you have described would be a really good method for you to use: there will be other elements that you will want to concentrate upon other than recomposing, for example timing the shutter release.

I’ll add, importantly, you are way ahead of the game because you are devising a plan: most Photographs don’t.

Break a leg.

WW

[brucehughw]

Hi, Bill.

That's a great idea about the tuxedo and the shirt. I had not thought of that. I work with two symphonies. One is more traditional (tuxedo/white shirt). In the other, I think he's more fond of a solid black shirt (so much for a contrasty edge). I'll try and post some results from both over the next few weeks. They both have concerts coming up.

Thanks a lot, Bruce

(I am not an expert on Nikon's Functionality, but I know a bit so this is a general answer not using Nikon-specific terminology):

If I chose to use that procedure, I'd set the AF Point off-centre, so it was the AF Point that would sit on the Conductor's centre chest when the images were Framed. What I mean is I would need to choose an AF point so that I did NOT USE "RECOMPOSE". I'd still frame a little wide with the view to Crop in Post Production.


I'd typically choose an AF Point near where the Tuxedo makes a line with the Shirt. I've had many discussions about this selection, the main argument against it has always been "but don't you want critical sharp focus on the eyes?" and my response is, for many (most) men and women, the eyes are usually always in about the same plane as that area of the chest. Why I like that hard contrast edge is because it is really easy for the AI to track on it, especially in low ambient light: I don't know about your camera specifically, but for my 5D series (and when I have used 1 Series) it works a treat. Additionally, I tend to always have a few inches fudge room because I'd tend to avoid extremely large apertures. The Orchestra (or whatever is behind the Conductor) will be more than a foot or two (300 ~ 600mm) behind and it will be rendered soft and OoF anyway.

If the clothing has not an hard contrast edge, such as a white shirt on black coat, then I'd choose an AF point that sits on the face.

One way is NOT better than the other: I gave you a list of how I'd typically do it, because that's how I typically do it. I have my Back Button set up so I can lock AF and Recompose the frame really quickly - because I have done it that way since forever, since when I only had Manual Focus lenses to do it I am reasonably quick - so I default to that method. Arguably, I might not use the advancement of AF systems to their limits, but on the other hand I still have an incredible adrenalin rush when I shoot on the hop, and when I am 'in the zone' it is a wonderful feeling and I really do know when I have nailed a good one and that gives me great joy.

I think, on the face of it, that the procedure that you have described would be a really good method for you to use: there will be other elements that you will want to concentrate upon other than recomposing, for example timing the shutter release.

I’ll add, importantly, you are way ahead of the game because you are devising a plan: most Photographs don’t.

Break a leg.

WW

[rpcrowe]

This is not an answer to your question.. Just a comment.

I would venture to guess that this is the sort of situation that the focusing modes of the new Sony APSC A6400 camera is built for. The latest firmware coming down the pike from Sony will add to the focus capability of the A7iii, A7Riiim and A9 cameras also.

This review has been echoed all over the Internet by various photographers who have used the intro copies of the Sony A6400...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1TpyRRQBWU

I want a second camera to shoot with primes along with my A6500... I am seriously considering the addition of the coming A6400 as part of my two camera setup. The form factor and price are right in line with what I want. Too bad it doesn't have IBIS. Oh well, it's a small $900 camera.