deviations from sunny 16 in digital photography

[george013]

The Subject/Title indicates that the OP wants to deviate from the Sunny 16 exposure. Asking for a conversion table is about how to stick to that exposure.

--
Odd S.

He's looking for a way to set exposure in M.

George

[george013]

Max,

The Sunny rules were meant for those who don't have a light meter. You've one in your camera. There's no need to use a "sunny" rule. Make use of the automatic functions of the light meter with the desired settings and use those values in M. Or just start in M directly. No calculations needed.

The question is how do I move away from that almost classic setting when for example I want a bit of bokeh in the shot.

http://gdlp01.c-wss.com/gds/3/030002..._Manual_EN.pdf
Just change the setting and keep an eye on the lightmeter.
ChapterManual Exposure, page 197. You can play with manual or auto iso.

George

[shutternutter]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand that statement. The Sunny 16 rule is all about getting the correct exposure and nothing more.

Aesthetics are more related to the focal length you use, the aperture, shutter speed and point of view.

The sunny 16 gives you very harsh shadows with little detail, I'd call that aesthetics. My original question was all about combining that with the things you mention.

In street photography, the Sunny 16 rule can go right out the window as photographing along the sunny side of the street will require a different exposure from when shooting a subject that is in shadow.

Obviously I might have to change settings depending on lighting. But that's always the case. Actually even when on the sunny side, as there might be a cloud...

Second question - why are you looking to replace your 77D? What about it is not working for you, given that it is a current generation camera.

It's just quite chunky and loud. In street photography you don't want to attract a lot of attention, so having a big black box in front of your face (the swivel screen is also not ideal) that makes loud clacking noises is definitely not something desirable.

Maybe this will help Max:

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/89...at-s-a-problem

Thanks, I'll read in in a quiet moment.

The Subject/Title indicates that the OP wants to deviate from the Sunny 16 exposure. Asking for a conversion table is about how to stick to that exposure.

Spot on, deviate from the shutter speed matching ISO part of it but keeping the EV. But the calculator does that beautifully, probably better than any table could have.

[shutternutter]

I didn't quite get to a situation where I wanted to deviate, but the standard settings I mentioned above worked quite nicely too yesterday.

[george013]

I didn't quite get to a situation where I wanted to deviate, but the standard settings I mentioned above worked quite nicely too yesterday.

That "very harsh shadows with little detail" is due to the big contrast in the image. Choose your exposure based on that part being in the sun and you get this result.

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunny_16_rule and special this

The basic rule is, "On a sunny day set aperture to f/16 and shutter speed to the reciprocal of the ISO film speed [or ISO setting] for a subject in direct sunlight."[1] For example:

George

[odds]

He's looking for a way to set exposure in M.

Sure, but the way I read the OP, he wants a conversion table for equivalent settings so he can stick to the exposure dictated by the rule.
--
Odd S.

[xpatUSA]

Originally Posted by george013 He's looking for a way to set exposure in M.

Sure, but the way I read the OP, he wants a conversion table for equivalent settings so he can stick to the exposure dictated by the rule.
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Odd S.

I agree and Max's posted picture makes the idea of "deviations" quite clear. Fortunately, the rule itself covers the deviations that Max mentioned earlier. If Max wanted some motion blur in the gentleman, then all that is needed is less ISO so he would set f/16 in Manual and crank the ISO downward to say 50 or 25 while setting the shutter according to the rule - say 1/50 or 1/25 sec. On the other hand, if the dude was running and Max wanted to freeze the motion, then setting a kajillion ISO such as 3200 would fix that, i.e. f/16 would require 1/3200 sec.

In other words the rule itself provides the necessary deviation by adjusting the shutter time. The "Looney 11" rule does the same for moonlight. For any other lighting, we would forget these stupid rules and actually use our heads to evaluate a scene and choose the correct exposure.

[diatribe] I find the rule ridiculously rigid, especially the insistence on f/16 which is not an aperture I would choose for anything in my work under the Texas sun. Far better to estimate the scene's lighting value in EV and to choose from all the combinations of aperture/shutter that make up that EV - as seen on the bottom two scales of my Sekonic meter which was at 12 EV if I recall correctly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposure_value

There's a table for 100 ISO in the above link; all the combinations for any value of lighting EV are included. Sunlight is about 15 EV; there's even a table for other lighting values covering the whole day and artificial lighting.

In other words - 'exposure 101'. [/diatribe]

Or, as Manfred said "most of us" just use the camera reflected light-meter with all the caveats that that involves ...

[pschlute]

[diatribe] I find the rule ridiculously rigid, especially the insistence on f/16

I don't read the "rule" as insisting on f16 at all. In order for it to be easy to remember one uses 1/ISO as a shutter speed and f16 to get to a base exposure. As long as you then set your three parameters so that they equate to the same EV you will have the same exposure

Because the rule is based on bright sunlight conditions you can very quickly run out of low ISO and/or fast shutter speed if you want to have a wide aperture of course.

[xpatUSA]

I don't read the "rule" as insisting on f16 at all. In order for it to be easy to remember one uses 1/ISO as a shutter speed and f16 to get to a base exposure. As long as you then set your three parameters so that they equate to the same EV you will have the same exposure.

Because the rule is based on bright sunlight conditions you can very quickly run out of low ISO and/or fast shutter speed if you want to have a wide aperture of course.

By "insists" I meant that's what the rule says (as George has already mentioned):

"On a sunny day set aperture to f/16 and shutter speed to the [reciprocal of the] ISO film speed [or ISO setting] for a subject in direct sunlight."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunny_16_rule

Perhaps the rule should say " ... set aperture to f/16 or any other aperture you feel like using ..." (pardon the sarc, just making a point).

Telling me what can be done after The Rule has been complied with is muddying the waters of this sub-discussion, I reckon.

[pschlute]

By "insists" I meant that's what the rule says (as George has already mentioned):

...but failed to point out what the wicki page goes on to say: "As with other light readings, shutter speed can be changed as long as the f-number is altered to compensate"

The sunny sixteen rule was coined in the film era. Forgot your light meter or your camera's light meter batteries have failed ? No problem. In bright sunlight f16 and 1/ISO is your setting. Or f8 and 1/ISO*4 etc

If you didnt have bright sunshine you would adjust your starting point and use say f8 and 1/ISO for overcast.

Sunny sixteen was never meant to solely or even predominantly use f16. Like "Loony 11" it an alliteration phrase that can be remembered

[xpatUSA]

...but failed to point out what the [Wiki] page goes on to say: "As with other light readings, shutter speed can be changed as long as the f-number is altered to compensate".

The sunny sixteen rule was coined in the film era. Forgot your light meter or your camera's light meter batteries have failed ? No problem. In bright sunlight [f/16] and 1/ISO is your setting. Or [f/8] and 1/ISO*4 etc.

If you didn't have bright sunshine, you would adjust your starting point and use say [f/8] and 1/ISO for overcast.

A "dull eight" rule, perhaps?

Sunny sixteen was never meant to solely or even predominantly use [f/16]. Like "Loony 11" it is an [alliterative] phrase that can be remembered

I agree ... the rule should indeed say "set aperture to any value felt necessary" with no mention of "sixteen" at all.

OK, Peter, I fold ... if only to avoid further education in 'how to expose my daylight shot'.

[pschlute]

OK, Peter, I fold ... if only to avoid further education in 'how to expose my daylight shot'.

Yeah, I tend to use the meter too

[pschlute]

Anyone remember these that were printed on the inside of the cardboard film boxes

[Manfred M]

I didn't quite get to a situation where I wanted to deviate, but the standard settings I mentioned above worked quite nicely too yesterday.

That "look" has nothing to do with either metering or the Sunny 16 rule, but is 100% driven by the lighting conditions. This is what is referred to as "hard light" and occurs throughout most of the day in sunny conditions, starting an hour or two after sunrise and an hour or two before sunset, depending on the time of year and your latitude.

This is the lighting most photographers try to avoid...

[george013]

......
I agree ... the rule should indeed say "set aperture to any value felt necessary" with no mention of "sixteen" at all.
......

And to what iso and shutter speed?????
It's not that difficult. You should know better at your age.

George

[xpatUSA]

Originally Posted by xpatUSA ......
I agree ... the rule should indeed say "set aperture to any value felt necessary" with no mention of "sixteen" at all.
......

And to what [ISO] and shutter-speed????? It's not that difficult.

Hmmm ... Quite right, George.

I must expand my rule:

"... select film speed as appropriate and set aperture, shutter-speed to any values felt necessary ..."

You should know better at your age.

There, I think that covers it. Best I can do at my age ...

[Manfred M]

The sunny 16 gives you very harsh shadows with little detail, I'd call that aesthetics. My original question was all about combining that with the things you mention.

Sorry, no, that is caused by the lighting conditions you are shooting under, not the method of determining exposure. The quality of light is the key ingredient in getting a strong image.

TObviously I might have to change settings depending on lighting. But that's always the case. Actually even when on the sunny side, as there might be a cloud...

Correct. That's why most of us use what is built into the camera, i.e. a light meter. I do use an incident light meter when I set up studio lighting.

It's just quite chunky and loud. In street photography you don't want to attract a lot of attention, so having a big black box in front of your face (the swivel screen is also not ideal) that makes loud clacking noises is definitely not something desirable.

My usual street camera is a full frame Nikon D810 and I either shoot with an f/2.8 70 - 200mm lens or a f/2.8 24-70mm lens. It gives me the image quality I am looking for. I have learned to "hide in plain sight" and people don't notice me when I don't want them to. I do a lot of street photography, especially when I am traveling.

[shutternutter]

Sorry, no, that is caused by the lighting conditions you are shooting under, not the method of determining exposure. The quality of light is the key ingredient in getting a strong image.

The lighting conditions still affect the look of the image. Just because it's not something that I control on the camera doesn't make less part of the aesthetics of the shot...
I think this might be more of a linguistic discussion though.

Correct. That's why most of us use what is built into the camera, i.e. a light meter. I do use an incident light meter when I set up studio lighting.

So, when you use the light meter, what happens with the subject you want to shoot? Do they patiently wait for you?

My usual street camera is a full frame Nikon D810 and I either shoot with an f/2.8 70 - 200mm lens or a f/2.8 24-70mm lens. It gives me the image quality I am looking for. I have learned to "hide in plain sight" and people don't notice me when I don't want them to. I do a lot of street photography, especially when I am traveling.

How often do you use the 24mm though? It does become a problem when you go close to your subject. Of course it works with a 200mm focal length, you're miles from anyone you're shooting. Even when I use my 50mm lens it's okay, but it just doesn't give me the dynamic look I like in street (which comes from a wide angle to low normal lens)

[Manfred M]

The lighting conditions still affect the look of the image. Just because it's not something that I control on the camera doesn't make less part of the aesthetics of the shot...

I think this might be more of a linguistic discussion though.

Agreed. Lighting is the most important aspect of photography and to some extent you control it by choosing what and where to shoot. Open daylight give you a particular light, open shadow another, covered shade a third. That's just on a sunny day.

Shoot on an overcast or partially overcast day any you are using nature's giant softbox. Shoot a snowscape and the snow acts as a giant reflector.

So, when you use the light meter, what happens with the subject you want to shoot? Do they patiently wait for you?

Most of my street photography is done using shutter priority mode. I sometimes shoot aperture priority. The slowest part of getting the shot is framing the image and waiting for the camera to autofocus.

How often do you use the 24mm though? It does become a problem when you go close to your subject. Of course it works with a 200mm focal length, you're miles from anyone you're shooting. Even when I use my 50mm lens it's okay, but it just doesn't give me the dynamic look I like in street (which comes from a wide angle to low normal lens)

Don't forget you are shooting with a crop frame camera and I usually shoot with a full frame. Your 50mm shot will have the same magnification as my 80mm shot. Henri Cartier-Bresson did most of his street work using a 50mm lens.

I shoot with whatever I want and shooting at 24mm is fine if I want more background and 200mm or even 300mm is fine when I want to isolate the subject and get more of a portrait look. I've gone even longer, under certain shooting constraints.

Here are a few examples of my street shots and the focal lengths I used.


1. Here is a shot I took in India with some boys and water sprayer at 28mm.






2. Same town in India - Donkey cart going down a street shot at 60mm






3. Street shot in Bolivia - 112mm





4. Guatemala (San Pedro la Laguana) - 200mm






5. Mennonite Boy - St Jacob's Canada - 400mm on a crop frame (600mm FF equivalent)

[shutternutter]

Those are nice shots, especially like the first and last.
Well, I suppose in the end it comes down to what gear works best for you, it's quite subjective. And for the time being getting a new camera is pretty much a theoretical question for me, cause I simply can't afford it. So the Canon works just fine...