Flash recycle time...

[rpcrowe]

I am a fan of Godox/Flashpoint flash equipment and have several units ranging from the large TTL360 to the tiny TTL350.

However when photographing dogs - especially rambunctious puppies; having a flash with a very quick recycle time is quite a bonus because I never know how quickly that I need to shoot.

I use a hotshoe flash on camera bounced off the ceiling and modified with a Joe Demb Flash Diffuser Professional.

Using a Godox/Flashpoint unit powered by two (TT350) or Four (larger hotshoe flashes) AA batteries is quite doable but, I really like a faster recycle time. I tried powering the hotshoe flashes using the battery pack from my TT360 and really liked the quick recycle that the combination offers. This is fine for photographing dogs since I am usually sitting on a rolling office chair when I am set up for dog portraits but, using the battery pack and the connecting power cord can be a bit clumsy when I am doing walk around shooting of dogs or people.

I tried the Godox/Flashpoint V860ii with its Li-ion battery pack and it works great giving me about a one-second recycle time at full power and correspondingly quicker recycle when I am using it in TTL mode. I often shoot with the camera on manual exposure and the flash on TTL. This is also going to be my people shooting combination with the flash mounted on a RF Pro rotating flash bracket (the bracket allows me to keep the flash over the lens in either horizontal or portrait positions).

When I am doing dog portraits, I shoot in the landscape position since: I need square images for posting on our rescue website and I also need the capability of doing calendar images which require horizontal formatting. I had mostly used the flash on my camera's hotshoe but, putting it on a stand and triggering it with an R2 Pro radio trigger allows me to shoot with a lighter weight combination and keeps the exposure constant; no matter where I position myself for the shot...

I won't bore you with examples of dog portraits done with the V860ii flash since they are the same as when I was shooting with a AA battery powered flash, Only the recycle time is changed for the better.

[Manfred M]

When I need really fast recycle time, nothing beats my studio monoblock lights. At moderate power settings, the recycle time is a fraction of a second.

I use a dual-cable between my Godox Wistro AD-360 and its power pack for very much the same reason, much quicker cycle time than with just one cable.

I use an inexpensive external power supply with eight AA when I need fast recycle time with my Nikon SB-900 Speedlight. Using rechargeable batteries (I use Maha PowerEx brand) gives noticeably faster recycle time than standard alkaline batteries. Unfortunately, the SB-600 does not accept an external power pack.

[rpcrowe]

When I need really fast recycle time, nothing beats my studio monoblock lights. At moderate power settings, the recycle time is a fraction of a second.

I use a dual-cable between my Godox Wistro AD-360 and its power pack for very much the same reason, much quicker cycle time than with just one cable.

I use an inexpensive external power supply with eight AA when I need fast recycle time with my Nikon SB-900 Speedlight. Using rechargeable batteries (I use Maha PowerEx brand) gives noticeably faster recycle time than standard alkaline batteries. Unfortunately, the SB-600 does not accept an external power pack.

Your Wistro AD360 is virtually identical to my TTL360 unit with the exception that the TTL360 can be used (as the designator implies) in TTL mode although I normally use it in the manual mode.

The Y cable is a great addition to either unit and allows us to draw power from both the outputs of the battery pack. That really decreases the recharge time of the 360 unit and I would expect (although I have not experimented) it would additionally decrease recycle time for a smaller hotshoe flash over drawing power from a single source on the battery pack......

When I was shooting Canon, I shied away from third party power packs because of some horror stories that they could cause havoc with the Canon 600EX flash but, I never heard the same horror stories about burning up a Nikon flash,

[lunaticitizen]

Do they underexpose on TTL mode? When I researched flash equipment for my new camera I came upon this thread, so I decided to buy another brand of flash.

Now I'm using a Nissin i60A flash with an Air10s commander. They're almost as expensive as Sony flash equipment, though. I didn't want to buy a Sony one since I still have my tiny Fuji X100F and I want interoperability between the systems.

[rpcrowe]

I have not noticed the underexposure problems mentioned in the thread that was referenced above. I just did a couple of shots as a quickie test using a TTL350 in HSS and TTL on my A6400 camera; shooting at 1/4,000 second shutter speed at f/1.8 with Auto ISO. There did not seem to be any significant underexposure in the shots. I will try some more tomorrow outdoors at both f/1.8 or f/1.4 with a Flashpoint hotshoe unit in HSS sync using both TTL and manual flash.

When I am shooting off camera flash, I will frequently determine my overall exposure in manual without the flash and then do some trial exposures with the flash in manual starting with around 1/4 power.

[lunaticitizen]

I see. Good to hear that. I rely on TTL exclusively so I decided it's not worth the trouble if what the thread said is true.

[Manfred M]

Do they underexpose on TTL mode? When I researched flash equipment for my new camera I came upon this thread, so I decided to buy another brand of flash.

Now I'm using a Nissin i60A flash with an Air10s commander. They're almost as expensive as Sony flash equipment, though. I didn't want to buy a Sony one since I still have my tiny Fuji X100F and I want interoperability between the systems.

This is potentially a problem with any third party hardware that relies on communications with your camera's on-board processor. This primarily applies to lenses (and teleconverters) and flashes.

There is never any guarantee that the hardware from the two different suppliers will "play well" with each other and there is certainly no guarantee that the third party hardware is compatible with future firmware and hardware upgrades. This tends to be less of an issue if one sticks with OEM equipment. They tend to at least identify backward compatibility issues, should they occur.

[lunaticitizen]

This is potentially a problem with any third party hardware that relies on communications with your camera's on-board processor. This primarily applies to lenses (and teleconverters) and flashes.

There is never any guarantee that the hardware from the two different suppliers will "play well" with each other and there is certainly no guarantee that the third party hardware is compatible with future firmware and hardware upgrades. This tends to be less of an issue if one sticks with OEM equipment. They tend to at least identify backward compatibility issues, should they occur.

Yes Manfred, I realize the shortcomings of third-party equipment. What drove me toward Nissin is that, as per my conversation with their CS, they licensed flash specs from camera manufacturers including Sony. I believe Godox does reverse engineering instead of licensing the specs.

It's not a guarantee of future compatibility of course, but I believe it will make Nissin more flexible and responsive to changes to the specs.

[Manfred M]

Yes Manfred, I realize the shortcomings of third-party equipment. What drove me toward Nissin is that, as per my conversation with their CS, they licensed flash specs from camera manufacturers including Sony. I believe Godox does reverse engineering instead of licensing the specs.

It's not a guarantee of future compatibility of course, but I believe it will make Nissin more flexible and responsive to changes to the specs.

My understanding is that Nissin and Metz both work this way, but the Chinese companies do not. I expect that explains part of the price premium for these two long-time flash manufacturers. They were both making flash well before any of the camera manufacturers entered the market with their own units.

[rpcrowe]

Metz was the first electronic flash that I ever used. I don't remember the model but, it had a rather large flash head and used a battery pack carried on a strap and connected to the head with a power cord. It did not have HSS capability but, I don't think that HSS had even been developed in the late 1960's or early 1970's when I used this unit. The X sync speed of most cameras that had a focal plane shutter was 1/60 second. That was virtually unusable outdoors for flash fill because you would get a ghost image of any moving subject when shooting at that slow shutter speed. Note: There were FP or FocalPlane flash bulbs designed for using with focal plane shutters but, I don't remember the shutter speed limitations of these bulbs - I hated using flashbulbs for many reasons. One reason is that if you got in line with a parked aircraft that was testing its radar, the flashbulbs could go off. That never happened to me but a shipmate of mine was pretty badly burned when several flashbulbs he was carrying in his trousers pocket went off due to an aircraft's radar beams BTW: microwave ovens were developed when the originator noticed that chocolate bars in his pocket would melt due to aircraft radar

At that time, I had a choice of shooting with a Pentax 6x7 medium format SLR which with its focal plane shutter was restricted to a sync speed of 1/60 second using electronic flash or a Graflex XL which had a leaf shutter in its lenses and could sync all the way up to its top shutter speed (which if memory serves me was 1/400 second). Pentax came out with a leaf shutter lens for the 6x7 Pentax SLR which could sync at higher shutter speeds but, I could never get my hands on one of these. If I remember correctly, you had to manually cock the shutter on this lens for each shot. This was not considered a drawback since many cameras required you to manually cock the shutter before shooting.

As I have said, I haven't noticed any great under exposure problems when shooting with my Sony gear and Godox flash units. This could be because I will normally be using HSS when using the units as fill flash. I don't remember if I used flash exposure compensation with these shots. I could easily have, since the Sony will allow me to view my exposures through the Eye Level Viewfinder and I will automatically adjust for better exposure. However, I know that I used a Godox/Flashpoint TTL685 in TTL mode for these exposures. I shot using aperture priority in order to keep the aperture at f/1.8...

Here I did this head shot at 1/1,600 second shutter speed with my Sony 85mm lens wide open at f/1.8



I did this 3/4 body shot 1/1,600 second at f/1.8



I did this full body shot at 1/2,500 second at f/1.8



I don't remember using the Godox/Flashpoint units on my Sony cameras with high speed sync when the flash was the only illumination. However for fill light, it seems like the Godox did quite decently. I never shot at a shutter speed higher than 1/4,000 second because that was the maximum shutter speed of the Sony A6500. My new A7iii has a shutter speed of 1/8,000 second but, I have only done some testing with my manikin and have not noticed any serious exposure problems.

I will be shooting a Diwali (Indian Festival of Lights) celebration next weekend as part of my on-going coverage of ethnic events and I "may" need to rely on my flash for more than just fill... Of course, unless the subjects are moving exceptionally fast, I would not need to use anything higher that 1/250 second when shooting this night-time event; which can be shot without relying on HSS.

BTW: The nice thing about when I was shooting with Canon gear is that when HSS is selected and the shutter speed is at or below the maximum sync speed (1/160 second for the 6D Mark-2 and 1/250 second for the 7D Mark-2) the camera/flash will automatically shoot at standard sync and if the shutter speed goes above the maximum sync speed, the equipment will revert to HSS. This is a set-it and forget-it operation. I don't believe that my Sony gear has this capability...

NOTE:

I just did some testing with my manikin shooting indoors (in my office) at 1/8,000 second wide open at f/1.8 with my 85mm Sony lens on my A7iii. Yes there are some underexposure problems when I bounced the Flashpoint V860ii unit using TTL and modifying the flash with a Joe Demb Flash Diffuser Professional.

I would need to increase the flash exposure compensation by about 2-3 stops for a head shot.

So: if you are going to rely totally on TTL exposure and if you will be shooting at very high shutter speeds using HSS - the Flashpoint/Godox hotshoe flash units may not be your cup of tea.

However, when using manual flash exposure (which is the way that I would normally shoot) the exposure is just about perfect for a head shot at 1/64 power (1/8,000 second @ f/1.8). Shooting from a distance to get a 3/4 body view, I would boost the exposure about 1/3 to 2/3 stops and for a full body shot I would shoot at about 1/64 power + .6 or at 1/32 power. This is with bouncing the flash in a "normal" size room with an average height ceiling.

Being able to view the exposure in the eye level viewfinder and being able to adjust the flash power with the rotary dial on the rear of the flash or the rotary dial on the R2-Pro trigger (when the flash is used remotely) it is easy to tweak the exposure.

When I shoot outdoors with flash fill I use a Demb Diffuser with the flash pointing up (like I would if I were bouncing off a ceiling) However I will angle the FlipIt portion of the Diffuser Pro about 45 degrees towards the subject. I have found that using a Saucer FlipIt is even more efficient outdoors than using the flat FlipIt reflector. The Saucer FlipIt directs more light forward than does the flat FlipIt...

www.dembflashproducts.com

[xpatUSA]

Coincidentally, a few weeks ago, I found my first flash unit (1973, third party, hotshoe, a whopping 6 GN, cheap). It took about 10 secs and whistled while it re-charged. Manual only - it had this table on the side to help with setting the exposure.

I've got 3 Sigmas and a Metz, so I threw it away.

[lunaticitizen]

My understanding is that Nissin and Metz both work this way, but the Chinese companies do not. I expect that explains part of the price premium for these two long-time flash manufacturers. They were both making flash well before any of the camera manufacturers entered the market with their own units.

I'm not sure licensing is THAT expensive. Godox might have wanted to license the specs too but I believe Japanese companies have -justified or not- aversion to sharing their technologies to Chinese companies.

I think it's the labor that is expensive. You just can't compete with Chinese companies on that. Recently our company made several bids for World Bank's projects and the prospective customers (foreign governments) always asked why our bid is at least 4 times as expensive as the ones from Chinese companies. Ugh.

[lunaticitizen]

Richard, those pics look really great! I'm looking forward to seeing your Diwali pics. There's a super-typhoon hitting Tokyo directly right now so I can't go out and take pictures, sigh.

[Manfred M]

I'm not sure licensing is THAT expensive. Godox might have wanted to license the specs too but I believe Japanese companies have -justified or not- aversion to sharing their technologies to Chinese companies.

I think it's the labor that is expensive. You just can't compete with Chinese companies on that. Recently our company made several bids for World Bank's projects and the prospective customers (foreign governments) always asked why our bid is at least 4 times as expensive as the ones from Chinese companies. Ugh.

Metz is a German, not Japanese company. That being said, I have no idea where Metz or Nissin manufacture

Hard to say regarding licensing costs as they are not made public, but even a relatively small amount quickly adds to the cost of a unit.

That being said, I strongly suspect that Nissin in a Chinese made product with limited roots back in Japan. One facility in Japan, one in Hong Kong and two in Mainland China.

https://www.nissindigital.com/about

Metz appears to have stuck with its German roots and still manufactures its flash products just outside of Nürnberg.

[lunaticitizen]

Metz is a German, not Japanese company. That being said, I have no idea where Metz or Nissin manufacture

Hard to say regarding licensing costs as they are not made public, but even a relatively small amount quickly adds to the cost of a unit.

That being said, I strongly suspect that Nissin in a Chinese made product with limited roots back in Japan. One facility in Japan, one in Hong Kong and two in Mainland China.

https://www.nissindigital.com/about

Metz appears to have stuck with its German roots and still manufactures its flash products just outside of Nürnberg.

Yes Manfred, my point was that neither Nissin nor Metz is a Chinese company, thus the labor is more expensive.

My Nissin flash is made in China, but I was talking about the R&D cost. That being said I know nothing about their cost structure either