On the street of Orchard Road

[teokf]

This is one genre that I enjoy. I am still learning and CC is welcome.


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[Shadowman]

Nice efforts, each is underexposed and could be processed to reveal more detail, however the third image works either way.

[Manfred M]

I'm going to disagree with John's assessment. The problem in these images is not exposure (which is acceptable, given the lighting conditions you were shooting under), but rather the lighting / time of day that you were shooting. On at least one of the images you have exceeded the dynamic range of your camera's sensor and are close to doing so on the other two.

Your problem is shooting at close to mid-day in very sunny conditions. This means that the light is very harsh and hard. These conditions do not generally result in good images. An overcast day would have given you far better results; none of the harsh shadows and bright highlights. Most photographers prefer shooting late in the afternoon or early in the morning (preferably "golden hour", where the sun is low and near the horizon and the shadows are soft). In your part of the world, golden hour is very short (10 - 20 minutes as I recall), so not that great...

Let me show you your images in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR). The blue areas are where you have NO shadow detail (a.k.a. crushed shadows) and the red (clipped highlights - only in your first image).

Image 1:




Opening up Image 1 as much as possible by lifting the shadows:





Image 2:




Again, opening up the shadows and reducing the highlights gives:






Image 3:




Again, same global changes as the other two images...




This is the most obvious issue to fix. We can address the compositional and framing issues, but the lighting conditions will prevent these from being good images.


If you want to shoot at that time of day, look at shooting people who are in the shade.

[Rufus]

I can understand a desire to bring out the shadow detail and avoid the clipped ends of the histogram, but perhaps a case could be made for a valid objective (particularly in images 1 and 2) to use the blacks to separate the mainly lighter subject(s) from the background; and then add some local lightening of the shadows, for example to bring out the faces of the people under the umbrella.

It could become the OP's distinctive monochrome style. Obvioulsy, (to me at any rate) this approach would not work in colour.

[Manfred M]

I can understand a desire to bring out the shadow detail and avoid the clipped ends of the histogram, but perhaps a case could be made for a valid objective (particularly in images 1 and 2) to use the blacks to separate the mainly lighter subject(s) from the background; and then add some local lightening of the shadows, for example to bring out the faces of the people under the umbrella.

It could become the OP's distinctive monochrome style. Obvioulsy, (to me at any rate) this approach would not work in colour.

David - That technique has been used for decades and is called Dodging & Burning.

Normally, the starting point for any strong image is a well exposed shot. That is just as true today as it was a century ago. Ideally (although it is not always possible) the original has no blocked shadow detail and clipped highlights. We may choose to do so, in post, for creative reasons, but if there is no valid data at either end of the histogram, it can create issues in further PP work.

[Geoff F]

For me, Manfred's edits aren't really working because too much fine detail has already been lost.

So as an alternative. I wonder about cropping closer to the main subjects, to lose distracting background features, and keeping these images as high contrast scenes?

[Manfred M]

For me, Manfred's edits aren't really working because too much fine detail has already been lost.

Agreed Geoff. That was the point I was trying to demonstrate - once the shadows have been crushed, there is nothing left to recover. In my view, the "appropriate" solution would be to re-shoot under better lighting conditions.

[teokf]

John, Manfred, David. Thanks for your input. It was interesting reading your individual input.

When I convert my pics to monochrome, I prefer my B&W high contrast. Manfred, I have never like B&W to have perfect exposure. When parts of the photo that does not make a contribution to what I feel at the moment when I took the shot, I would darken it. You could say it is more of a artistic decision.

1st. photo - the action of the 2 Chinese girls using an umbrella vs the Caucasian lady walking towards them was a clash of culture and their full stride was what caught my attention. Everything else did not matter to me.

2nd photo - the slim young girl walking, oblivious of what was happening around her. But the man who was overweight and almost like eyeing her, was my subject. Again, other then my subject, everything (not litteral sense of the word) else did not matter to me.

3rd photo - It was a post processing decision that I darkened the background to highlight the mom action to the son.

My learning process question. When you judge street photography, does correct exposure matters?

[Manfred M]

Steven - it would be very interesting to see the original files, to see what you have started with.

As a classically trained photographer, I shun too much black and too much white in my own work; the mid-tones are what makes or breaks an image. I want to see a full tonal range in B&W work; so in most images I want to see a bit of pure black and a bit of pure white. If you push the blacks too hard, you get a boring, textureless area that, in my view, shows poor photographic technique. Subtlety makes a strong image, brute force generally does not. I have no issues at all with high contrast, especially mid-tone contrast, which is the range that the human visual system is most sensitive to. Just remember, you are a photographer; you are not doing lithographs.

And yes, proper exposure matters in all photography, not just street photography. When I judge an image good technique is important. I would suggest you look at some of the classic masters of B&W street photography; Henri Cartier-Bresson, Vivian Maier, Gary Winograd, Diane Arbus, just to get you started. Just remember, they were shooting a long time ago, with cameras and film that modern digital cameras put to shame.

[teokf]

Manfred, thanks for the reply.

Thanks for the pointers of the B&W masters. Maybe I have too much of the dark side in me

I would love to upload the original files, but, over here it seems impossible with the limitation. Unless you know how to upload a 24Mb file to this site that we mortals do not know.

[Manfred M]

Manfred, thanks for the reply.

Thanks for the pointers of the B&W masters. Maybe I have too much of the dark side in me

I would love to upload the original files, but, over here it seems impossible with the limitation. Unless you know how to upload a 24Mb file to this site that we mortals do not know.

Steven - we I write about the "original", I am generally writing about the file before you started working on it. Generally, if you are working with a raw file, just save it as a jpeg and post it. On occasion, someone will suggest looking at the original raw file and in that case, the only way to do this is to give someone access using a file sharing service like Google Drive, We Share or DropBox. In this case, just a JPEG will do; I just want to see what the scene looks like before any edits.

The second thought is that there are techniques to accomplish what you are trying to do that preserve shadow and highlight detail. They are very effective, but take time and effort; it's a lot more than playing with one or two sliders. Take a look at one of my postings: Night train to Amritsar


Look at entry #11 where I show the final image as well as what I started with. Most of what I used to accomplish the darker look was dodging and burning.


That is one of the reasons I sent you to look at what some of the old masters did. They used techniques called dodging and burning to manage the details in their images. Two that I did not mention (because they were not street photographers) are Ansel Adams, the great American landscape photographer and Yousef Karsh, the Canadian portrait photographer. Both used these techniques in their work, with Adams spending hours in the darkroom making his print himself and Karsh's printer doing much the same.

In your search, look at these two photographers work too.

[William W]

This is one genre that I enjoy. I am still learning and CC is welcome.

1. Explaining your purpose and what was it that you wanted to express is very helpful.

2. As already requested, please post the JPEG SOOC (Straight Out Of Camera) - yes the time of day has 'different' or 'difficult' lighting: but that lighting might suit what it was that you wanted to express, but, in any case, and irrespective of the Lighting - on a technical note, prima facie, it appears that your Colour to B&W conversion is questionable, hence the request for JPEG SOOC.

Details of the Camera that you used would also benefit, the lens(es) used too, (though it appears to be a mid telephoto), thanks.

WW

[teokf]

Manfred, my go to software is Nik's Sillver Efex Pro 2 as my base. Most times I will use the Preset Film Noir 1 filter. As mentioned, I like the high contrast feel of that filter. From there I use layers to get what I want.

Bill, it is a 35mm f2.8 or the f1.8 not sure which I used. I have both lenses. I prefer primes to zooms.

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[rpcrowe]

Steven - I am not sure if t is my monitor but the subjects in the first two images just don't seem sharp (I can't tell about image 3). In #'s 1 & 2 the focus seems to be behind the subject a bit. The background seems sharper than the people...

[William W]

Thanks for the details.

I asked what camera you used, pursuant to its capture of Scenes with a wide Dynamic Range.

WW

[teokf]

Thanks for the details.

I asked what camera you used, pursuant to its capture of Scenes with a wide Dynamic Range.

WW

Sony a7ii

[Manfred M]

Thanks for posting the originals.

Yes, the light is quite harsh and you are definitely pushing close to the limits of what your sensor is capable of capturing. When I look at these images in Adobe Camera Raw, I see crushed shadow details and clipped highlights in all three images. Again, the blue areas are crushed shadow detail and the red are clipped highlights.

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You have stated that you have a preference to Silver Efex Pro's Noir 1 filter. You are taking a high contrast scene and pushing it even harder. The problem with a number of the Nik routines (not just with Silver Efex) is that they have been built to enhance global contrast, which means that they push data to the right hand side and left hand side of the histogram. In situations where the white point and black point are already close to the maximum, the routines seem to push too hard and drive the values to either 255 or 0.

In general, people seem to prefer images that are high in contrast to ones that are not and in many cases adding more global and / mid-tone contrast will strengthen an image (an exception is foggy or misty scenes where the opposite can be true). In these images, you already have very high contrast, adding more is going to give you results that most viewers are unlikely to appreciate.

Another thought for you; in most products that we that are expensive or highly valued tend to be the ones with exquisite detailing. The rough-cut, poorly finished products tend to be the cheap ones. So rather than relying on brute force methods to create your images, start looking at them more subtly. This is the primary reason that I suggested you study the works of the past masters of photography.

[William W]

Thanks for providing the information re Camera: that camera should be able to handle those lighting conditions apropos DR.

I suggest that, if you don't already, you understand how much you can push the camera's exposure to the right and still recover highlight detail, or most of the highlights, in post production.

Even though you express a liking for non perfect exposure in your B&W, it is (typically) best practice to get the very best and most comprehensive usable raw data in the original file.

The (small) images you have posted make it difficult for detailed forensic interrogation, however prima facie , it occurs to me that you could push the exposure quite a bit harder to the right in similar High Contrast / Hard Lighting Scene - especially if the intent is to convert to B&W: I reckon you've got about 1 Stop up your sleeve - yes acknowledged as Manfred pointed out the umbrella is clipped in Highlights - but in the big scheme of things for the B&W OUTCOME you have described that won't matter and in any case that's clipped highlights in the JPRG file- it can be a different kettle of kippers working intially on PP from the raw file.

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. . . When I convert my pics to monochrome, I prefer my B&W high contrast. . . I have never like B&W to have perfect exposure. When parts of the photo that does not make a contribution to what I feel at the moment when I took the shot, I would darken it. You could say it is more of a artistic decision . . . - the action of the 2 Chinese girls using an umbrella vs the Caucasian lady walking towards them was a clash of culture and their full stride was what caught my attention. Everything else did not matter to me.

Preamble -

I don’t know how that preset program you used, works, however I think that many digital B&W conversions, be they automated or manually converted lack a basic understanding of ‘seeing’ the scene in Black and White.

Additionally the understanding and application of “Contrast Filters” has been shelved in the archives, rarely visited.

Based upon that preamble – AND - your Artistic Vision as described, here is a (rough and quick) précis of the considerations I would adopt if the image were given to me for Post Production. Note that working from the small JPEG provided there are undesirable artefacts in the final image: these should not inhibit the point of the exercise.

Consideration of The Artist’s Vision:

Although the "full stride" is what caught your attention and "everything else did not matter", I'd suggest that you consider that "clash of culture" is Juxtaposition.

When Juxtaposition occurs between Subjects, it is typically a benefit to exploit the Facials Expressions of those Subjects, (very) often an enhancement of the Juxtaposition will occur. I argue this is so in this shot.

The two Asian women’s expressions are quite different to the Caucasian woman’s expression.

From a technical point of view, for the Post Production, I’d next consider, “Everything else did not matter to me.” And also, “prefer my B&W high contrast”.

Armed with the above as key points on my check list, I would proceed with the B&W conversion. . .

I’d argue it’s next to pointless converting to B&W from a Colour File, without first considering and addressing the major INTERNAL contrasts and levels which will need to be in concert with the Artist’s Vision for the Final Product.

In this regard, the faces are in medium to heavy shadow and my first approach is to Dodge those areas.

The next key technical point is to have a general overall Image Contrast to addresses the requirement of an High Contrast Final Image – there are many ways to achieve this outcome, in my example I used Level Adjustment, both input and output. Note I am still working on the Colour File.

Now for the B&W Conversion. Armed with the knowledge and experience of the application of Contrasts Filters, I prefer to make most of my B&W conversions manually and I have provided as a screen shot showing the Contrast Filtration I used for this B&W conversion.

Though the sample images are very small files, I think that it is apparent the alternative Post Production has two key differences, both of which underscore (and enhance) the original Artist's intent-

1. Juxtaposition is exacerbated by a clearer rendition of the faces (original Dodging of the Colour File).

2. The background is overall darker (selective use of Contrast Filters dependent upon the colour and tone of the background.

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IMAGES outlining the process -

THE ORIGINAL b&w posted for critique:


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THE FINAL an alternative Post Prodcution:



Original Colour:


THE PP PROCESS in précis:






WW

[William W]

. . . My learning process question. When you judge street photography, does correct exposure matters?

“correct” Exposure in the original File or Negative regarding my personal critique of Street work:
Almost always. Unless there is dominate and overwhelming worthiness not to: here is one example I cited recently in another CiC conversation about Street Photography [LINK]

My Judging (i.e. as Competition Judge) it will depend upon the Judging Criteria, but, the technical aspects of attaining “correct” Exposure in the original File or Negative typically will mostly always have an effect upon the final score outcome.

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This is one genre that I enjoy. I am still learning and CC is welcome. . . it is a 35mm f2.8 or the f1.8 not sure which I used. I have both lenses. I prefer primes to zooms. . . Sony a7ii . . .

Get closer.

Although the adage “shoot wide and crop in post” is one I have sometimes advised – my definite advice for you, using a 35mm on 135 Format, for the type of street work that you have displayed here – I feel - you MUST get closer.

WW

[teokf]

Manfred, Bill. Thank you for a detailed critique. I truly appreciate that. Let me digest it better and re-do a few of the photos that I personally like and I will post it here again with a BEFORE and AFTER post.

Again, thank you.