Street photos in BW

[teokf]

These two photos were PP differently from my previous BW photos after seeing both Manfred and Bill done with my originals. I, PP the photos without going through Nik's filter. And my BW has still a long way to go as I could not get the high contrast that I like. C&C welcome.

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[DanK]

Steven,

I missed the earlier thread, but my two cents is that you are wise to skip NIK at this point. NIK is a powerful set of packages, but IMHO, they are primarily useful for the control point technology, special effects, and filters. They can do the basics, but they aren't set up to highlight them.

Your first image is in my opinion very high in contrast. The problem is that parts are too dark, and that obscures detail. To show what I mean, I started with two simple edits. I used Photoshop for this. I moved the midpoint down with a levels tool, which lightens the midtones, and I dodged the person to lighten him a little more. That produced this:



You could add contrast to that. I did that in the next one, anchoring the darks and pulling up the lights with a curve. I didn't pull the darks down because the face is already so dark. I think it's probably too much.



I don't know which software you use, and unfortunately, this is one area where the controls in Lightroom and ACR are very different from Photoshop. In LR, I would make the overall adjustment with some combination of the exposure and shadows sliders, and I would use a similar combination with the adjustment brush for dodging. The curves tool is similar in the two packages.

I hope this helps.

Dan

[xpatUSA]

... my BW has still a long way to go as I could not get the high contrast that I like.

How about adding micro-contrast plus sharpening so as to increase apparent sharpness without excessive shadows and highlights?



Dan's first edit at left, with added micro-contrast at right.

[DanK]

How about adding micro-contrast plus sharpening so as to increase apparent sharpness without excessive shadows and highlights?

Excellent idea.

[Manfred M]

Your images are looking "crunchy", i.e. they have been pushed so hard that a lot of the subtlety has been lost. Your images are very high contrast and you are pushing the bottom end (blacks and shadows). The look you seem to be after is what we tended to see in B&W lithographic prints, especially the lower end like those found in newspapers in years gone by.

When I look at the shot, you are crushing shadow detail. That in itself is not necessarily a problem, but the places you are doing it is not necessarily good practice; the face and skin of your subject, for instance. That means that these areas contain no data which translates to a lack of subtlety.



I use a slightly different approach to what Dan and Ted do; I use the Shadows slider in Lightroom / Adobe Camera Raw (or the Camera Raw Filter in Photoshop) to open up the details to give key parts of the image more subtlety. I then use curves where Dan uses the Photoshop Levels tool to get a similar result.

Because I find the contrast over the top, I apply an inverse "S" Curve to try to bring the mid-tone contrast down a touch. Finally, I crop out areas of the image that don't add to the image; this brings out your subject more.





In my experience, the difference between an ordinary image and a strong one is not achieved through brute force, but through subtlety.

[William W]

These two photos were PP differently from my previous BW photos after seeing both Manfred and Bill done with my originals. I, PP the photos without going through Nik's filter. And my BW has still a long way to go as I could not get the high contrast that I like. C&C welcome.

As per my previous [Post #18 HERE LINK], any detailed CC, especially regarding the conversion to B&W, requires at the least a copy of the original Colour JPEG SOOC.

Thanks,

WW

[DanK]

There are really two very different issues here. One, which I think was the point of the first post, is how to get what the OP wants:

And my BW has still a long way to go as I could not get the high contrast that I like.

The other is whether what the OP wants is the strongest version of this image.

Both are important, but I think they are worth keeping distinct.

[William W]

Different issues, sure: both worth discussing - definitely: being distinct about each matter - of course: advice and comment on the two matters always being mutually exclusive - probably not always: concerning both matters, not using NIK is probably a good idea.

Concerning both matters - a JPEG SOOC is a valuable predicate for advice for commentary, on both.

WW

[DanK]

Re the SOOC: an alternative, if you shoot raw-only (as I do) is to export a color JPEG with minimal processing.

[William W]

^ Agree. Anyway, there's 'minimal processing' in the JPEG SOOC too, sometimes a lot of PP, if you've set the in camera processing to extreme levels . . .

***

The point is, (and this is admittedly a big 'issue' of mine), I am of the opinion that for any (searching for the best adjective) worthwhile discussion or critique of Digital Post Processing to B&W, viewing the colour version is mandatory, for many reasons.

WW

[rpcrowe]

Is it my eyes or my monitor or are the subjects of these images just nit quite sharp.

I also had a very hard time distinguishing the feet of the woman in image #2 (image lower left)... Apparently, this image was captured with an UWA lens and the feet are not only OOF but exaggerated way out of proportion.

Of course this is a personal peeve but, I generally don't like images of people (or dogs) shot with UWA lenses...

[teokf]

Thanks for all the different inputs. I will reply to all the question here.

Richard, you are correct, it is wide. I was testing the lens. My usual street lens is either the 35 or 55.
I use photoshop to PP.
Ted, I like the micro contrast.
Manfred, how do you contrast the mid-tones? I use curves in PS.
The SOOC file

Sony a7iii | 24mm | f2 | ISO 1600 | no flash | if you are wondering why such a high ISO. It is dawn with a gloomy sky.

[teokf]

There are really two very different issues here. One, which I think was the point of the first post, is how to get what the OP wants:



The other is whether what the OP wants is the strongest version of this image.

Both are important, but I think they are worth keeping distinct.

Thanks, Dan

[DanK]

Thanks for posting the SOOC image.

The SOOC image shows an issue that I would address before doing anything else. In most photos of people, the most important element is the faces. The man's face is shaded and dark, even before you did the B&W conversion and added contrast. The first thing I would attend to, before making other changes to tonality, would be the man's face.

[Manfred M]

Steven - let me post a diagram that discusses the histogram a bit.



Contrast is done by enhancing the areas that are dark and are bright as that is what contrast is.

There are three main types of contrast that we deal with:

1. Global contrast - that is set by having a full tonal range from pure black to pure white. This diagram is of an image with good global contrast as we have data from pure black to pure white.

2. Mid-tone contrast is what we get when we increase contrast in the mid-tone range of the image. The human visual system is most sensitive to these tones. The way we increase mid-tone contrast is by pulling down the curve at around the 1/4 tones and pulling up the curve at around the 3/4 tones. This gives us the "classical" S-curve, which boosts mid-tone contrast.

Any time that the histogram line is greater than 45 degrees, that part of the curve has increased contrast.

3. Micro-contrast - this is where we darken and lighten adjacent pixels that are already dark and light. This is effectively what we do when we deploy tools like Smart Sharpen or the Unsharp Mask. Clarity, texture and dehaze in Lightroom / Adobe Camera Raw are also forms of manipulating micro contrast.

One has to be careful, especially with micro-contrast, as these tools when used to excess, give your image a "crunchy" or over-sharpened look.

[xpatUSA]

Steven - let me post a diagram that discusses the histogram a bit.

Pardon the question, Manfred, but what type of histogram is that e.g. raw, linear, RGB, luminosity, etc.?

https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tu...istograms2.htm

I ask because I need to define "shadows" in some unrelated research.

[Manfred M]

Pardon the question, Manfred, but what type of histogram is that e.g. raw, linear, RGB, luminosity, etc.?

https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tu...istograms2.htm

I ask because I need to define "shadows" in some unrelated research.

Luminosity - I know where you are coming from, but Steven is likely working to this, so it is most relevant to that level of discussion.

[William W]

Thanks for posting the SOOC image. . . The man's face is shaded and dark, even before you did the B&W conversion and added contrast. The first thing I would attend to, before making other changes to tonality, would be the man's face.

I agree with Dan’s comments.

The essence of a quality B&W conversion is preparing the colour file for translation: in the old days, if shooting on B&W Negative Film the facsimile processes would be (main elements and not an exhaustive list):

> selecting the TYPE of film
> selecting the DEVELOPER, TIME and TEMPERATURE (neg)
> selecting the PAPER (print)
> selecting the TYPE of lighting
> selecting the COLOUR and DEPTH OF TONES of attire and props
> selecting the CONTRAST FILTER

***

Obviously, in an impromptu situation, you don't necessarily have control of the lighting, but the great advantage of Digital Capture is you can reverse engineer much of what we needed to control at the outset, if we were shooting B&W neg.

In this case, as you desire high contrast B&W as you end product, it is imperative you address the lighting that wasn’t available to you, before proceeding to the B&W conversion.

Again, the image files you posted are very small and this enlarged AB sample has a few undesirable artefacts, yet is a worthy example of a starting point – The original is on the top:



I simply dodged the face area working, repetitively, in small steps (about 10% increase) and in small areas.

The next step was an overall increase in the width of DR (in PS it is the “Shadow Highlight” slider) again working in very small steps – the result is a face that appears as having a fill light and the background a tad more lively that the overcast day.

Here is the full frame:



At this point I wouldn’t be ready to covert to B&W, rather I’d address (what I term) the internal contrast of the image – this stems from ‘thinking in B&W’ – on the overcast day I’d want to ‘bump’ the fellow off the palette, it’s a tad unfortunate that he has a light green/blue shirt, that’s not the best coloured shirt for an Asian skin colour, but a GREEN Contrast filter will do a reasonable job – here is the result – (actually, if you want to fiddle a Deeper Green + Yellow Filter may do better, an ORANGE Filter should punch it out of the park)

Here is a default conversion (i.e. "directly" to B&W, no filtration, no colour is emphasized relative to another) –



Here is a conversion with a GREEN filter – not much, but at least bit more of a punch:



Now I’d be ready to work on the B&W file -

I get the feeling the ‘high contrast B&W’ final image you want is something like 1970’s Newspaper Prints – very edgy with a wide DR but few actual/specific Tonal Graduations.

There are a few ways to get to that (if that’s what you want) one way is to use the INPUT LEVEL slider – this will act globally (i.e. across the whole image). Here is the result –



Here is a screen shot of the process:



The key point to which I return, is that I believe you must prepare the Colour File meticulously, before even considering conversion to B&W.

It’s also my belief that, if the desire is to master Digital B&W, then ‘thinking in B&W’ is a worthy pursuit and to that end, an understanding of how different Tones and Colours will convert to the Grey Scale and how the use of CONTRAST Filters will impact on those conversions, is necessary.

WW

[teokf]

Bill, I don't like the conversion. His face is just too 'flat' for my liking. Moreover, if I am to show the conversion to the man (if I can find him) he will be very upset with me for making him look like a Chinese.

Manfred, when contrasting the mid-tones, do you anchor the highlights and shadows and then create an 'S' in the mid-tones? Maybe you could show me how the S looks like? Thanks.

[Manfred M]

This is a fairly aggressive S-curve. Any place the cure's angle is greater than 45 degrees the contrast is increased.