Looking for help / insight regarding my first camera purchase?

[DanK]

a drop from 30 to 26MP is far from a deal breaker

I posted that I display prints in a gallery up to 17 x 22 taken with a 22.4 MP camera (5D Mark III). So why would the difference between 26 and 30 MP be a dealbreaker, let alone for a novice? The fact is that you won't notice it at all. To display on the web, you will end up throwing out 3/4 of that detail.

The Mark IV isn't what I would call "old". It's been out a few years, but it's still the newest in the 5D series, and it's better than anything I have used in the dozen years I have been doing digital. In fact, it's better than anything I have used in the half century I since I first picked up an SLR. (that will change when I get mine later this week.) It's on sale now, but it's still $2,000. IMHO, it's nuts for a novice, but hey, it's your money. On the positive side, if you like it, it should last. They are built like tanks, and it will take you a long time to catch up with its capabilities.

Fine art photographers these days are mostly printing on "fine art" papers, which are very high-quality matte papers. Almost everything I have on exhibit is on a baryta paper, which is a coated paper that preserves detail better than fine-art papers. The gallery where I exhibit has several photographers, and I think only one displays at greater than 17 x 22. All but one of mine there are smaller than that. None of the photographers with whom I have exhibited use metal, although some occasionally use what is called a metallic paper, which is just a type of coated paper. I do have a couple of metal prints in my house, however. They are great for humid environments.

Re printing being intimidating: yes, it's a bit intimidating at first. But the real difficulty, after you learn how to use the camera, is not printing; it's postprocessing. I've been doing this a long time, and I still have a long list of things I need to learn or to practice more. I can spend hours working on processing a single image, but once it's done, I can get the printer started in minutes.

I think I have nothing more useful to suggest.

[Manfred M]

can get the printer started in minutes.

Before I took my first printing course, someone said to me, why do you need a course? All you need to do is click on the "print button".

[DanK]

Before I took my first printing course, someone said to me, why do you need a course? All you need to do is click on the "print button".

I'm not suggesting that printing is simple, just that postprocessing (which I take to include most of the preparation for printing) is much more so, in part because once one learns one's way around a printer, a lot of printing is reasonably consistent after the soft-proofing stage.

This a digression but in terms of the mechanics, it's much faster for me than for you because I print from Lightroom. I store templates that include all of the software and printer settings that I usually use for a given paper. For example, I have two templates for 13 x 19 Canson Baryta, one that makes the print large enough to have a 1/8 overlap with the mat board, and another than has a negative overlap--I forget, maybe 5/16--when I want room to sign a print. So when I am printing that size on that paper, after I am done soft proofing, it is literally just minutes to start the printing.

[The Dutchman]

Well, you guys have been amazing and basically given me a lifetime worth of info to process. Finished a couple great comparisons between the Canon and the Fuji earlier (if I'm hellbent on overspending for my first camera). No question I don't have the discerning eye to differentiate between the two, and the Fuji might be easier to carry around which means I'm more likely to have a camera on me. I'm staying w/ the ICM as well so smaller may be nicer for that too.

DanK based on what you've said I should be able to enlarge a 26MP and still get amazing results. However, if I'm blessed to become professional at this some day it also sounds like sales of 21 x 14 or thereabouts are quite common (this falls within the excellent resolution range for the Fuji according to one article). Manfred mentioned how many twists and turns. I haven't taken a lot of videos but I've enjoyed them. It sounds like the Fuji may have a small edge over the Canon.

I just stepped outside and played around w/ the 2x zoom on my iPhone to get an idea of what I can do w/ a real camera. I can't wait to try the same pics in higher resolution. Usually just avoid zooming on the iPhone because even I feel like I can see a drop off in quality. As long as whatever it is doesn't get run over by a car I'm sure I'll be thrilled with it.

https://www.apotelyt.com/compare-cam...-fujifilm-x-t3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-YseHDqOL4

[William W]

Based upon my experiences, you are seeking answers to and focusing on way too much specific information which is mostly irrelevant AT THIS TIME to you achieving the outcomes of:

"I’m an aspiring professional photographer. My . . . goal is to have large prints hanging in galleries one day. I mostly take shots in and around Dallas, Texas. Architecture, natural landscapes, pretty much everything I can think of or notice to keep it interesting and fun. It’s been a bummer that my iPhone Xs isn’t better shooting at night. So mostly stills with a handful of nature videos sprinkled in. It would also be nice to have quality zoom as well.”

You NEED to get as many quality flying hours up, in as short a time as possible.

You can achieve that, whilst also attacking directly and immediately, the goals as you have outlined.

I suggests that the course of action be:
> a good quality new or second hand camera that allows manual exposures and video with the kit standard zoom lens;
> a dedicate methodical practice, review and critique regime;
> attain quality flying hours in Post Production
> attain a grasp of practical business basics;
> clear your mind of matters which are absolutely not important, at this time (for two examples only - the topic of Printing and the notion that this camera purchase will remain intrinsically relevant to your cause for the next 5 to 10 years)

WW

[William W]

. . .

> clear your mind of matters which are absolutely not important, at this time (for two examples only - the topic of Printing and the notion that this camera purchase will remain intrinsically relevant to your cause for the next 5 to 10 years)

WW

That comment does NOT critique in ANY manner whatsoever the (quality) information which is being provided about Printing (and other matters) - it means simply and exactly what it says: that IMO the OP should clear his mind for the moment of matters which are not relevant at this time pursuant to his purchase of a camera, to move forward toward the goals he has outlined.

He can come back to other information, later.

WW

[William W]

. . . Basically need to lay out and budget for what's needed overall, and what's my timeline for that matter? Do I want to try making a print in 3 weeks or 3 months etc... I knew absolutely nothing so your help is greatly appreciated! . . .

Yes you do.

Not now though.

Keep it percolating in the back of your mind, make lists, and refine the list as you learn more: because, if you’re fair dinkum in this quest, that list and that budget and that timeline will change: which is one of the key premises for the comment, that you’re not focusing on what matters, now.

***

. . . I ran a chauffeur service in Sun Valley, Idaho for roughly 10 years so I have an idea of how to market (and, of course, a lot to learn).

Good. A practical business background is useful. (good) People skills are necessary to sell art.

However it is a way different discretionary spend on art (and necessarily a chauffer-hire is a primary spend in some situations); and it is a different market base and it is a often second tier market base: usually you need to get through the gallery owner, first.

There are other marketing and branding differences too, especially if you intend to sell directly, on-line.

WW

[William W]

Slightly off the main topic: with your "Architectural" photos, you might consider ensuring that the verticals are indeed vertical: the technical error that you often make is not having the i-phone parallel to the Building's face (although Converging Verticals may be corrected in Post Production, but sometimes creating more headaches than the process is worth).

Also for more interesting texture, making the images earlier or later in the day would benefit, you could explore more side lighting than the overhead lighting of a sunny day which you are (typically) presently using.

***

Closer to the topic, (as advised by many here) below is a practical example of why learning efficient and quality Post Production skills will be necessary:


House on the Corner, Melk, Austria

WW

All Images © AJ Group Pty Ltd Aust 1996~2020 WMW 1965~1996

[The Dutchman]

William, I’ve missed a few. For example, color tilted and BnW done properly side by side. Annoying. I’ll reread your posts when I’m back on my laptop. Weeks or months of fun in store before tripods, printing etc. It will be a blast. However, Good to know now that it’s quite an endeavor. Sounds like I’ve almost got enough to have y’all critique my work or to submit to Colossal, Creative Boom etc. Thanks again, Rich

[The Dutchman]

Thanks for looking at them William. I enjoy tilting the camera up to capture the clouds. On some of them, I'm able to edit them so the building appears upright. But I forget sometimes. "The road to success is always under construction." It also sounds like w/ hard work almost anyone can sell a few.

You all can laugh at me for my thoughts, but what is the most accessible way to access your camera? I'm probably going w/ a 1 lb. mirrorless but carrying it around my neck might get old. Has anyone invented a bungee leash like the ones surfers use yet? That would prevent you from dropping it.

I also have a roomy Cabela's camou fanny bag I can wear facing forward. I can only imagine how many ladies I'll pick up with this arrangement. Will have to remember to wear black socks and hike them up as high as possible to complete "The Look." But hey, if this is what it takes I'll do it

[Manfred M]

If you are concerned about perspective distortion in architectural shots, then you are going to want to limit yourself to Canon and Nikon full-frame bodies. These are the only two camera manufacturers that turn out a range of perspective correcting (shift / tilt) lenses.

Yes there are third party lenses available and with the exception of the relatively inexpensive 24mm Samyang, all the others are built by either Schneider-Kreuznach or Hartblei (Zeiss) and are extremely expensive, when compared to the pricey Canon or Nikon lenses.

This shot was taken with the Nikkor f/3.5 24mm PC-E lens





Nice and parallel vertical lines with no loss of detail that comes from perspective correction in post.

[The Dutchman]

Thanks Manfred, that's a beautiful photo inside that church. I'm afraid I missed it yesterday. So if I'm hellbent on spending as much $$$ as possible, get a full-frame if I'll be doing architectural. Or just focus on taking the proper picture as William pointed out, for free!

I suppose if I snap up a $600 Canon instead of the $1600 camera I could literally put $1000 into savings for visiting the local Arboretum or zoo, taking a road trip, buying a tripod etc. Having that in savings makes it more sexy and fun, something to look forward to.

I've only been posting under my story on instagram lately. Went in to see who has been viewing and then visited their pages to enjoy and like their work. On one page, I was like "wow, the detail." I looked at his bio... Nikon D40. MSRP $137.95. Haven't had a single photographer say "yeah, go out and spend as much as possible." Might be good reverse psychology.

This was a great, funny video: https://www.diyphotography.net/why-s...rong-decision/

[Manfred M]

Thanks Manfred, that's a beautiful photo inside that church. I'm afraid I missed it yesterday. So if I'm hellbent on spending as much $$$ as possible, get a full-frame if I'll be doing architectural. Or just focus on taking the proper picture as William pointed out, for free!

I suppose if I snap up a $600 Canon instead of the $1600 camera I could literally put $1000 into savings for visiting the local Arboretum or zoo, taking a road trip, buying a tripod etc. Having that in savings makes it more sexy and fun, something to look forward to.

I've only been posting under my story on instagram lately. Went in to see who has been viewing and then visited their pages to enjoy and like their work. On one page, I was like "wow, the detail." I looked at his bio... Nikon D40. MSRP $137.95. Haven't had a single photographer say "yeah, go out and spend as much as possible." Might be good reverse psychology.

This was a great, funny video: https://www.diyphotography.net/why-s...rong-decision/

I still agree with Bill on that it does not matter as to what camera you pick up right not, but I was just pointing something to think about.

I wouldn't touch a D40; it is something like 16 years old and sold for $500 when new. Sensor is only 6MP and it was noisy at any higher ISO settings. Based on how technology progressed, I wouldn't touch any camera that came out before 2012; that's when the hardware matured to a point where new generations did not see huge image quality increases.

[rpcrowe]

I agree that for the expert photographer, a perspective control lens is a great option. But, IMO, for the beginner, perspective control may just muddy the waters. I have worked with tilt-shift lenses since 1958 when I shot with a 4x5 inch graphic view camera. A PC lens is not the easiest piece of gear to master!

A possible compromise at a very low cost would be to buy virtually any inexpensive camera/lens combo and shoot with that for a while. It should be superior in capability to your phone as a camera.

Shoot a variety of images and enter them in the contests we have here at CiC and other sites or simply post them on the various sites. See what kind of feedback you get. This "MAY" provide you with an indication of your capabilities as a photographer. If you get good feedback, that might be time to think of a more capable outfit. After all, the most important part of any camera system is "six inches behind the lens!"

One of my favorite low cost but, high quality combinations was a Tokina 28-70mm f/2.8 ATX lens

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MINT-TOKINA...kAAOSwhvZe3xzg

combined with a Canon 5D Mark 2 body.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Canon-EOS-5...EAAOSwVpRe2XSX

I don't have any landscapes done with this combination since I used it to shoot models but, here is an idea of the quality that can be had from a low priced setup...

[xpatUSA]

I'm wondering if, for the first month or two, the OP would learn the necessary basics more quickly by shooting in manual everything at base ISO - irrespective of the camera chosen and irrespective of the subject matter.

Just a thought ...

[Manfred M]

I'm wondering if, for the first month or two, the OP would learn the basics more quickly by shooting in manual everything at base ISO - irrespective of the camera chosen and the of the subject matter.

Just a thought ...

No, I can't agree. Why would one pay for all those camera features and not use them.

I know a number of old timers insist on newcomers shooting manual only, but in general, I find that this tends to discourage rather than encourage new shooters. The types and times I shoot on manual is very limited, so unless one shoots panoramas or works with studio lighting, it is not a skill that is required.

In my view, photographer do need to understand the exposure triangle, depth of field, the impact of shutter speed and image quality. But just as important, they need to learn to see "photographically"; composition, light and how light quality, quantity and direction impact their images. Those are the hard skills to learn.

I do agree that it is a skill people need to learn at some point.

[The Dutchman]

Hi Manfred, you were dealing with someone hellbent on spending as much as possible and wanted him to make the best choice. I'm not sure how long 50% of my pics will be architecture but that's good to know. Favoring whichever Canon I can buy for under $750 at this point, the rest can go into savings. Sometimes the herd is right, not a single person said to go for broke on this. Feel like a weight's been lifted off my chest. I'm usually right, but not always.

Thanks, RP. I see you below. My thoughts exactly, this is the exact conversation I had with a friend a few minutes ago. I'm at t_rexpics on Instagram. One of my color castles is tilted back, the BnW is "perfect", at least to me. I noticed it and commented on it below the pic a week or so as it drove me nuts. Probably dozens like this on my page. Want to cut most duplicate photos before submitting to Colossal et al again.

Back to the beginning. In the battle of the $700ish cameras I preferred the Canon over the Nikon and Sony. Canon sounds beginner friendly; it also sounds like it has the best "factory" color but can still shoot raw. Back to work August 1, will be interesting to see how that affects me. If I'm blessed and photography remains part of who I am for a while, then I can consider the Canon or Nikon full frame.

My VICM (Very Intentional Camera Movement) before and after pics are under My Story on Instagram today. I haven't seen any like mine but they're probably floating in the ether somewhere...

[xpatUSA]

No. Why would one pay for all those camera features and not use them?

Not what I said and not what I meant, please include "for the first month or two"!

For example, if he bought a top-of-line intelligent-auto-everything camera and used it thus, he would learn quite slowly, if at all, I reckon.

I know a number of old timers insist on newcomers shooting manual only, but in general, I find that this tends to discourage rather than encourage new shooters. The types and times I shoot on manual is very limited, so unless one shoots panoramas or works with studio lighting, it is not a skill that is required.

Arguable, IMO.

I do agree that it is a skill people need to learn at some point.

[Manfred M]

Not what I said and not what I meant, please include "for the first month or two"!

For example, if he bought a top-of-line intelligent-auto-everything camera and used it thus, he would learn quite slowly, if at all, I reckon.

In my experience at one of the photo clubs that I belong to, both approaches have been tried. Our instructors are volunteers and we have a mix of older photographers who essentially still shoot very much the way they learned; manual focus, manual exposure. One of them insisted that people use an incident light meter, rather than use the camera's built in meter. The younger ones (or at least the ones that prescribe to leaning using automated functions) teach photographic techniques and composition rather than the mechanics of how a camera works. They also cover manual functions including shooting in manual mode and manually focusing the camera.

Two years ago we switched to a different teaching approach because the older instructors were not getting anyone to sign up to their teaching sessions. Two things happened; first the new members that were beginning photographers appeared to integrate better into the club; they would show their work on member's nights and enter competitions more quickly. We also had a much higher retention rate of new members; typically less than half the new members would return to the club the following year and with the new approach, the renewal rate was over 80%. One of the new members blew everyone's socks off by winning the first competition she entered (that being said, she was a traditional artist - painter), but not a photographer when she joined up, so had a very strong eye for composition.


Let me also look at a bit of an analogy. When I first started driving, the prevalent thought was that a "proper" driver needed to know how to drive a manual transmission car, not just an automatic. There was some rationale there too - manual transmission cars had better fuel economy and were easier to drive in ice and snow because one could use engine braking and accelerate in a lower gear. Standard transmission cars were also less expensive to buy.

Jump to 2020 - computer controlled transmissions have better fuel economy. Traction control eliminates acceleration issues in winter driving conditions and in fact by transferring power to the wheel with traction, there is less risk of loosing control. Why would someone need to know how to drive a standard transmission car nowadays?

[DanK]

This probably should be moved to a new thread, as it's far beyond what the OP is addressing.

I think this discussion somewhat misses the point. I think the core is to teach people (1) the principles of what matters and how settings affect the images, and (2) how to get the settings one needs. Shooting in a fully automatic mode teaches people neither of these. Whether one teaches them using manual mode or some combination of modes (other than fully automatic) is just tactics, not strategy. I would personally lean toward using manual mode a portion of the time because doing so forces a discussion about exposure every single time, e.g., "you've decided that you want more depth of field. OK, what do you have to do to get that? Ok, you've figured out that you need a narrower aperture. Hmm. this image is way to dark. Why? Right, the narrower aperture let in less light, and you didn't do anything to compensate for that. What are your choices?"

Having grown up in the snow belt driving only manual transmission cars, and having endured the pain of teaching two kids to drive a manual, I think the analogy is poor. One teaches people to use a manual transmission if it will benefit them to use one. It is not a way to teach people the principles that are the analog of #1, e.g., knowing why you should take your foot off the brake before you turn hard on snow or how to get out of a rear-wheel skid. In fact, mixing the two together makes it harder to learn some of #1. I put both of my kids through intensive driver training, including a defensive driving course with forced skids and the like, in a car with an automatic transmission so that they could concentrate on #1. Only then did I tell them that it was time to layer on another skill, and I took them out to damage my clutch.

If you want people to learn the effects of changing aperture, they need to change aperture, not let the camera do what it wants. It's immaterial whether they practice in Av mode or manual mode.

Re teaching only using only an incident meter: that's just pointless. There are rare instances when an incident meter is better, although if one knows what one is doing, one doesn't really need one even then. But in the overwhelming bulk of cases beginners will face, a reflective meter is just fine--often preferable, in fact--and it's the tool they have with them and will most often use. Insisting on an incident meter sound to me like people insisting on doing what they are most familiar with rather than starting with the question of what makes pedagogical sense.