Looking for help / insight regarding my first camera purchase?

[DanK]

It's not clear whether you are asking for advice, but I'll offer a little.

My new thing is to get my images as close as possible to the real thing that I don't have to post-process very much.

Yes, you should always try to get things as right as possible in the camera. But you are missing the point if you think that the purpose of post-processing is simply to fix mistakes. All digital images are processed. If you shoot JPEG, they are still processed, but using a fixed recipe for contrast, sharpening, etc., built into the camera's firmware. The main point of postprocessing is to make the image look like you want it to look. For example, the lighting may be too harsh or conversely too drab. Or there may be areas that are too bright or two dark, just because of what the scene looked like. If you want a good example, google to find the example of Ansel Adams' original and final Moonrise, Hernandez New Mexico.

Here's an example of my own. First, the original shot--awful lighting, too short a lens, no ability to get close to compensate for the short lens, and tourists in the way. I didn't really make mistakes with the camera.



Here's the final version that I exhibited:

Some edits fall into place immediately, but others have forced me to become more systematic. Of course, there have been shots that have a ton of potential that I've had to take into Photoshop unsuccessfully.

How much time have you put into studying how Photoshop works? there is a lot one has to learn even to use simpler postprocessing software, such as Lightroom, and Photoshop is orders of magnitude more complicated because it is both more powerful and more flexible. For example:

--Have you learned how the spread of the histogram affects contrast, and how to use the tools in LR and Photoshop to increase contrast by stretching the histogram? (The tools are different in the two.) This is usually the first thing I would teach.

--Have you studied how to use a curve to increase contrast? This is probably number two on my list.

--Have you learned techniques for dodging and burning?

--Have you started learning how to use selections, masks, and brushes to make other local adjustments?

--have you started learning how to use layers and blend modes?

--Have you studied the tools available for sharpening (again, different in LR and Photoshop)?

--Do you know how to manage local contrast using the texture and clarity sliders in Lightroom or unsharp mask in Photoshop?

These are some of the things (it's not an exhaustive list) that one has to learn to be adept at postprocessing. It takes most people (certainly me) a long time and a lot of systematic studying. People on this forum are very generous in helping people as they learn these things, so as you study and practice, you will generally get help if you post specific questions.

[Manfred M]

Rich I just had a quick look at the images you have posted on Flickr. It looks like you are having fun.

Once you have mastered your camera a bit more, I would suggest that you start paying attention to both composition and post-processing. Pushing an image hard and playing around with sliders is a lot of fun, but rarely gives you a strong image. Funky colours will get you attention on social media, but not necessarily for the right reasons.

One of my instructors told me that he spends less than a minute pushing sliders and doing global (i.e. whole image) adjustments, a few minute at most doing area adjustments (things like sky, bodies of water, etc). Some 95%+ of the time is spent doing local adjustments (often measured in hours) ; i.e. tweaking small areas of the image to get things to look right.

When it comes to composition, that is all about how you arrange the elements that make up your image, paying particular attention to space and minimizing and eliminating distractions.

[The Dutchman]

DanK (Captain Obvious), thank you. I did enjoy reading about Ansel Adams✅. Clearly it will take a while to master Photoshop, although I suspect some masters will say that they haven’t mastered it yet either. Need to hustle out the door to take some pics

[The Dutchman]

Thanks Manfred. I have a pic of a Dallas Club John Lydon of the Sex Pistols played at a while back. I love the photograph, but there’s an awning in the foreground I can’t read. That’s an area that I want to home in on. I don’t think I’m going to be posting very much because I want to keep working on what you and Dan have suggested

[xpatUSA]

DanK (Captain Obvious), <>

Dan is being called "Caption Obvious"!

Is that really necessary?

Please explain ...

[The Dutchman]

Stating "you're missing the point" when we appear to agree but great, helpful info as always. Thanks Dan, I'll need to work on the bullet points you suggested.

My first Flickr post was invited to post in a couple small, CSSS cityscape and perspective pages yesterday. I couldn't believe it because my photograph wasn't anywhere near as good as the other photographers' work.

Then I received notice around 11:15pm last night that another had made their Explorer page. It's probably not that great either but it was quite a surprise.

I'm sharing this because I started this thread, love my new camera and it's kind of a hoot (as I may very well never be on that page again). Please see my description of the shot:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/189496...posted-public/

[William W]

. . . I've talked to pros who are considering the Canon EOS M50 a their back up camera. . . .

Interesting comment.

What are these pros shooting?

A Professional's Back-up Camera is typically the same make and usually the same model as their Primary Camera: for what should be, obvious reasons.

WW

[William W]

Dan is being called "Caption Obvious"!
Is that really necessary?
Please explain ...

Stating "you're missing the point" when we appear to agree but great, helpful info as always. Thanks Dan, I'll need to work on the bullet points you suggested.

Actually, that is NOT the sentence which Dan wrote. It is a cherry picked phrase from one sentence and it does not have anywhere near the meaning that you have implied. Much like how three second sound bites, taken from 20 minute interviews, are aired in newscasts to make the interviewees appear to have a position which was never intended.

The full sentence is:

"But you are missing the point if you think that the purpose of post-processing is simply to fix mistakes."

What that means is, the act of missing the point, is conditional upon one using Post Processing to simply fix mistakes.

Additionally, the sentence implies a question, which is "Are you using Post Processing to fix mistakes?"

Moreover, that question is implied because Dan stated up front that he was unsure whether or not you were asking for advice and assistance.

Similar to his Post Processing, Dan takes much effort in the precision of his writing such that it conveys the exact meaning as was intended.

WW

[xpatUSA]

Similar to his Post Processing, Dan takes much effort in the precision of his writing such that it conveys the exact meaning as was intended.

Hear, hear, Bill!

[Manfred M]

My first Flickr post was invited to post in a couple small, CSSS cityscape and perspective pages yesterday. I couldn't believe it because my photograph wasn't anywhere near as good as the other photographers' work.

Then I received notice around 11:15pm last night that another had made their Explorer page. It's probably not that great either but it was quite a surprise.

Yes, the smaller Flickr groups can be annoying that way. They are looking for material to add to their inventory.

Definitely up to you, but I have always said no to them. My intellectual property is mine and I will approach anyone I care to share it with, but don't bother if this is a one-way street where you get value and I get nothing other than some minor level of exposure.

When I got back into serious photography about 10 years ago, I asked one of my teachers on how to get appropriate recognition. I was told the following:

1. Enter your images in recognized, juried competitions and get known locally, regionally, nationally and internationally that way. The internet based competitions are, for the most part, meaningless and do not gain you any credibility.

2. Get your work published in respected publications. Getting your images published is good and it is even better to get editorial content published.

3. Get your work accepted into curated shows. Start in shows where you share the space with others, but target getting a body of work into a show of your own or perhaps with one other photographer.

I'm doing well on that list and my next steps are looking at bodies of work for larger gallery shows.


When it comes to post-processing. this is a skill that is absolutely essential to master. If you study the history of photography, post processing has been with us for a very long time. With experienced photographers, it is generally not about "fixing mistakes". Ansel Adams said it well; "Dodging and burning are steps to take care of mistakes God made in establishing tonal relationships.".

Straight out of camera images are fine for snapshots and other types of photography; wedding, portrait, sport and event photographers try to minimize the time they spend on those activities. Fine art photographers, advertising and high end fashion or beauty photographers spend a very long time cleaning up images; time here can be measured in hours and in some cases days.

One of my teachers / mentors told me he spends less than a minute doing global changes (these involve moving sliders in Lightroom or Camera Raw), no more than a few minutes doing area changes (skies in a landscape or the background in a portrait). He spends 90% - 95%+ of his time mostly just dodging and burning in small local areas of the image. His workflow means very little work in Camera Raw / Lightroom Develop. Virtually all his work is done in Photoshop.

[Tronhard]

Interesting comment.

What are these pros shooting?

A Professional's Back-up Camera is typically the same make and usually the same model as their Primary Camera: for what should be, obvious reasons.

WW

Hi Bill

I hope you are keeping safe and well over there in the land of Oz!

I am rather surprised at this too... The M series has been generally seen as marketed at the consumer, travel and vlogger markets, and I note none of the M's is built to the level of robustness of the R series MILC bodies, which is definitely a pro market space. Lastly, there would be a distinct difference in the ergonomics of having, say, a high-end DSLR and a compact M series. In that context, for me, when I am working, being able to place my fingers on the controls without looking is important, and something I think most pro's would support - yet the button configuration is not too similar, especially in terms of customization.

As to lenses: I grant that one could use EF lenses with an adapter, but that seems very odd when there are so many DSLR's suitable for use as a back up out there. For a pro an issue for future-proofing would be that there is no compatibility between the excellent RF and EF-M lenses, so that would mean carrying EF-M lenses, which are not IMHO at a pro level.

As I noted in the post "Camera for an Amateur", post #22: The M50 does indeed have the newer processor, and has better videography features, so I have seen this as supportive of video rather than stills photography. Other things that point to that relationship come with the fact the M5 is all metal, while the M50 is composite, and the M5 has an EV dial (something a videographer would be less likely to use) on the top plate whereas the M50 does not.

Both the M5 and M50 use essentially the same sensor, which is also in the same league as the now superseded EOS 80D. While a good camera (I have a couple), the newer sensors of the 90D certainly surpass it. In fact, I am expecting to see a M5mkII coming out in the future if the line is to continue to be competitive.

[William W]

Yes Trev, I am well, thank you for asking. Trust you are too.

Yes the M5 and the M50 are quite similar. I own an M5. It's a lovely camera and I have a lot of fun with it: I have built a kit of fast Manual Prime Lenses and they all fit nicely into a small backpack and I play to my heart's content. It's great for al sorts of holiday photography (not at the moment, though) and I also like it for Street Portraiture. It's small inconspicuous good High ISO range and the fast manual primes test my skills. That last point is the best point, for me. I see my M5 kit as a sideways extension of my Fuji X100s.

However, (although I do relatively few pro gigs now) my M5 would never be used as my "Back Up Camera" for the pair of 5DMkIII's that I generally use for pro gigs I do now (Social Functions). My BU is a 5D MkII and the emergency fourth body is a 5D.

The last time I used a pair 1 Series (for sports) I hired a third 1 Series as the Back Up Camera, that is I choose NOT to use my (then) 5D MkII as the backup - it's just too confusing to swap your thinking in the heat to the moment when you're in the zone with a pair of cameras: if one fails - you must have the same camera in your hands quickly, especially for sports or any fast moving gig - even an award night, for example - recipients on the stage every 20 seconds, you haven't got the time to re-program your brain for a different set of procedures, no matter how similar those procedures might be.

That's my view based on my observations of my colleagues and my personal experienced - that's why I asked the OP what these pros were shooting - I can't think of any pro gig (video included) where one would swap to an M50 as Back Up, even if they were using a pair of R Series as the main two Cameras.

WW

[Tronhard]

Hi Bill

Glad you are ok over there. I hear Victoria just declared a state of emergency from COVID. Scary stuff...

I have 3 M5's because I have this thing about not changing lenses in the field, especially with a MILC. I got the first one because I could not walk far with a wrecked knee. Since I had a knee replacement I have become fully mobile again and I have gone back quite often to my stable of DSLRs. That said I like the M5's and the EF-M lenses have got a bad wrap IMHO. I am particularly impressed with the 22 and 32mm lenses. I don't do any paid work any more, so I shoot to please myself and to almost completely view on electronic devices - i.e. large HR screens. These units are fine for that.

I think the M50 has been a hit with some bloggers and certainly one sees fewer M5's on sale these days. As I said, I think the time is ripe for an M5 MkII!