The Machinist

[xpatUSA]

So everyone came to this image with ideas about how a machinist should look

The idea that females should always have an alluring expression even in such images does seem to be lingering ...

[DanK]

So everyone came to this image with ideas about how a machinist should look, and how a photographer should represent a machinist

The idea that females should always have an alluring look even in such images does seem to be lingering

Just to be clear, these had no bearing on my comment. I don't have any expectations about how a machinist should look, and I don't think females have to look alluring. I just think the image isn't interesting because it shows nothing about being a machinist--no action, pose, or relevant expression. There is no connection between the subject and the environment except for physical proximity. I also find the sulky expression, detached from any reason to sulk, unappealing, and this has nothing to do with gender. I actually first thought the subject was male. It's just a matter of taste.

My only comments about the technical aspects are gilding the lily, as they are things that Manfred will certainly take care of in the final shoot. I wouldn't place the big red button on a bright yellow background next to the face. I might think about some selective desaturation to keep the viewer's eye from moving away from the subject, although that might make the machinery less interesting.

[xpatUSA]

Just to be clear, these had no bearing on my comment. I don't have any expectations about how a machinist should look, and I don't think females have to look alluring.

Glad that's clear, not that I would ever have thunk it.

[billtils]

So everyone came to this image with ideas about how a machinist should look, and how a photographer should represent a machinist and have had those expectations severely challenged.

No, not everyone ... I just didn't like the image and was not influenced by how I felt a machinist should look (there's a wealth of variety in "Machinist").

[Wandjina]

I think Manfred has done extremely well. This is not a studio shot, the dials and equipment in the background cannot be moved, they are part of the story. The machinist is not a model and so WYSIWYG. Maybe in the final shots she may show a little feeling for the job at hand.
I would like to see a bit of interaction between her and the machine. Maybe a hand on one of those red wheels. Or maybe her torso could be facing the machine a little more while she glances back up over her shoulder at the camera.
Anyway, it has inspired me to go and take some photos of my own factory, which some people have described as "in a time warp back to the 1960s."

[mugge]

The red button is an emergency stop button. The buttons on the top are green: start and red: stop. It is the same all over the world.

Cheers Ole

[William W]

So everyone came to this image with ideas about how a machinist should look, and how a photographer should represent a machinist and have had those expectations severely challenged.

Well, I wasn't going to respond, now it does seems necessary to echo Dan (and Ted).

That's a big assumption and it seems to indicates wide misunderstandings of the meaning of several of the comments in this conversation.

For the record my comments were certainly were not predicated by how a Machinist should look and I had no expectations challenged.

To be clear, my first comment was meant to ratify that (as a test shot) Manfred's image showed diversity to what would be my typical discussion and planning if I were given a Shoot with the Brief: "A Machinist in situ".

For example if I were asked to voice one depiction of "The Shot" with the Brief - my mind's eye would begin to outline something like:

> middle aged bloke
> skilled and strong hands on the controls
> focused eyes on the metal in the lathe
> tool cutting spirals off the metal
> slow Tv to create a sense of movement at the tool face

HOWEVER - Manfred's Brief was NOT "A Machinist in situ", but rather it included specifically (my bold now for emphasis) - "looking at the diversity of the employees in modern manufacturing industry in Ottawa"

Hence my comment, that, even though it was only one photo, it did indeed show diversity. i.e. as a test shot, if I were the AD or Commissioning Agent I'd say, "Manfred, please proceed".

WW

[MrB]

So everyone came to this image with ideas about how a machinist should look, and how a photographer should represent a machinist and have had those expectations severely challenged.

Just to clarify, my post (#16) has nothing to do with the content, presentation, or interpretation of 'The Machinist' photograph. It was an expression of disappointment that what is 'in fashion' should have been given any consideration when discussing the creativity of a photographer.

Philip

[Manfred M]

I've been really busy for the last few days and have not had time to respond to the comments. This is going to be a long post...

First of all, let's be clear that there are many different photographic styles that are targeted at different audiences, regardless of the the actual subject type. They all have their "drivers" from a customer viewpoint.

1. Retail photography - Weddings and portraits - generally not considered sophisticated consumers. The subject is more important than technical and artistic quality. This is a commodity business where price is often the most important consideration.

2. "Club" photography - this is generally the type of photography many of the photographers posting on CiC strive for. These tend to be either one-off or short series of images that strive to have high technical and compositional quality.

3. Commercial photography - client is a business rather than an individual. Quality varies from basic to exceptional.

4. Fine art photography - Different audiences found here from the low end where prints are sold at craft fairs to boutiques that sell art of all kinds to high end galleries that hold exhibitions of a smaller number of photographers. These top end galleries and curated shows, through curators and collectors define current trends in high end work. The general direction at the higher end is that they want a body of work by the same photographer and there must be a meaningful theme to the work. Each exhibition requires an "artist's statement" describing the intellectual drivers of the body of work on display.

It is this last area of photography (and to some extent the high end commercial photography) where members seem to have issues. I have read many complaints were about the looks on the models faces in publications. What surprises me a little is that people haven't caught on that this is considered "desirable" in the genre; that's why you see so much of it. Rather than whining about it, learn to understand and appreciate why people appreciate and gravitate towards that look.

My other point is that I am very happy about all of the (negative) comments my image generated. This is exactly what I was hoping for as it suggests I have made a very strong impact on the viewers here. That is of course what I was hoping for as it shows me I was on the right track in my approach. This is the type of image that will not do well in club competitions, for all the reasons you have given. It is likely to get a good reception with the target audience...

I've also shown it (and two other images) to an internationally regarded photographer and photographic curator, Michael Tardioli and got the following note back from him. Michael was Karsh's colour printer for quite some time so has seen a lot of high quality images in his 35 years as a commercial print maker and photographer.

"Hey Manfred
Theses are well done .. high quality !
m"

This is the first time he's said that about my work. He is well know for being brutally honest.

Regardless, these are the other two images in the set.










Regardless, these were a primarily of the lighting and shooting positions. My main concern was controlling the light on the highly reflective metal surfaces I was dealing with. A single light solution is not going to work and I generally won't have room for a second "active" light, so I will be bringing in my light stand with boom arm to use with either my 20" x 24" small softbox (with and without eggcrate). I will be shooting it with my 74" x 40" silver reflector. I might also bring the 22" white beauty dish with a 15° and 30° grid.

I hope to set up my next shoot this week.

[escape]

Clap, clap, clapping at Manfred. Well said and done. The look has grown on me. Just a thought. On the last picture have her look at the camera instead of what occupies her hand. Like she just looked up with the look of course.

[Manfred M]

Clap, clap, clapping at Manfred. Well said and done. The look has grown on me. Just a thought. On the last picture have her look at the camera instead of what occupies her hand. Like she just looked up with the look of course.

Thanks Daniel

As I said, these were primarily a lighting and shooting position test. This is a small shop with somewhere around 25 employees and the machines are quite close together, so shooting options (and ambient lighting) are challenging.

What I had not mentioned is that my subject was not having a good day and that explains the look. She we rear-ended on the way to work, she had just had a tool break on her and I was shooting about 1/2 hour before it was time to go home for the weekend...

[Rufus]

…Rather than whining about it, learn to understand and appreciate why people appreciate and gravitate towards that look…

My post #6 recognises that a look may be preferred for certain purposes, and gave fashion shoots as an example.

BUt it was not clear whether the business owner or other party wanted that look and if so, why.

...I am very happy about all of the (negative) comments my image generated. This is exactly what I was hoping for as it suggests I have made a very strong impact on the viewers here. That is of course what I was hoping for as it shows me I was on the right track in my approach. This is the type of image that will not do well in club competitions, for all the reasons you have given. It is likely to get a good reception with the target audience...

I agree that evoking a strong reaction is a generally a desirable outcome, but not necessarily at the expense of other things the photographer is trying do with an image that are more central to the overall objectives of the photographer or client.

We do not know whether “working with” means the project was initiated by Manfred, the business or a third party. Nor do we know why the subject of diversity was part of the brief.

We were presented with a single shot, albeit it was a test shot and there will ultimately be a series of images. Nevertheless, the image appears to have largely failed to communicate “diversity” or a “machinist” to the CiC audience.

And talking of the audience, we were also not aware of who the intended audience is, other than Manfred was working with a local manufacturing company. Is the audience the company’s customers, employees, potential recruits, readers of a trade association magazine…? We therefore were commenting with only partial knowledge.

Yes, it is a great image and we would not expect anything else from, Manfred, even though we are often privileged to see a work in progress like this.

I am looking forward to seeing more as the series develops.

[Chataignier]

Sorry Manfred, I generally like your work and have learned a lot from your advice, but I dont like these. The woman looks bored - perhaps that's fashionable, but to me it's not a positive for the client (I did 20 yrs as MD of an international ad. agency). Of the three, I prefer the last because it shows a bit of what is being done and even the bored employee looks a bit interested.

[xpatUSA]

Just a thought. On the last picture have her look at the camera instead of what occupies her hand. Like she just looked up with the look of course.

Can't agree, Daniel, sorry. Firstly, if she is looking at the control lever (not the work) that ain't right. Secondly, no machinist should look away from the work-in-progress, ever.

Unless "diversity" means how undisciplined one worker is versus others ...

[xpatUSA]

Of the three, I prefer the last because it shows a bit of what is being done and even the bored employee looks a bit interested.

Me too, David ...

[DanK]

Of the three, I prefer the last because it shows a bit of what is being done and even the bored employee looks a bit interested.

I agree.

[Manfred M]

Secondly, no machinist should look away from the work-in-progress, ever.

That was also the case back when I ran a manufacturing operation that included a machine shop. With manual machines, the machinist had to be 100% engaged, 100% of the time.

These new "manual" machines have a large control panel that you see in the background. Punch in the appropriate instructions and the machine does everything itself. The only time it stops is when the operator has to engage an different tool (with up to 6 different ones sitting in the turret. While the cover has windows, they are rather useless while the machine is running as they are coated with coolant flying off the work piece.

One of the more automated machines in the shop has no need of an operator. It is loaded up with sufficient quantities of raw stock and it is once it is turned on, it runs all night (no operator in the building) and in the morning the finished pieces are removed from the output bin and the bits that the chip conveyor did not carry out to the waste barrel get cleaned out.

The other machines are all programmed remotely and the critical skill in properly setting the raw materials in the clamping device. The machine does the rest.

Not anything like how things ran 35 years ago.

[FootLoose]

Manfred, you say above in post #29 that,
"These top end galleries and curated shows, through curators and collectors define current trends in high end work... I have read many complaints were about the looks on the models faces in publications. What surprises me a little is that people haven't caught on that this is considered "desirable" in the genre;"

As you have embraced the trend could you explain the elite's reasoning for promoting this disaffected expression. It is certainly preferable to the cheesy grin we see in shapshots and the "stunned mullet" glare that graces many subjects in candid street photography, but surely the elites are not slavishly following the fashionistas' demand for models to present themselves as expressionless plastic mannequins.

[escape]

There seems to be some strong feelings regarding the look. I'm curious to see the rendering of the look by the other employees. Sounds like it could be a fun photo shoot. "Can you give me a little bit more hopelessness and a tad less despair." "Perfict!"

[Manfred M]

Manfred, you say above in post #29 that,
"These top end galleries and curated shows, through curators and collectors define current trends in high end work... I have read many complaints were about the looks on the models faces in publications. What surprises me a little is that people haven't caught on that this is considered "desirable" in the genre;"

As you have embraced the trend could you explain the elite's reasoning for promoting this disaffected expression. It is certainly preferable to the cheesy grin we see in shapshots and the "stunned mullet" glare that graces many subjects in candid street photography, but surely the elites are not slavishly following the fashionistas' demand for models to present themselves as expressionless plastic mannequins.

The main reason I have embraced the trend is it is the only way to get one's work past the "gatekeepers" that control access to exhibitions. Frankly I do not like a lot of what I see coming out of the community, but...

There have been three significant "movements" in photography, if we look at the history of the genre, especially in the fine art side of things.

In the late 1800s people like Stieglitz, Steichen, etc. were determined that photography was more than a process of documentation and went on to create work that broke all those rules. The movement was centred in Europe and in Eastern North America. They were the Pictorialists, A genre I don't love either.

In the 1920's some folks in California led by the likes of Edward Weston and Ansel Adams started new trend where sharp, beautifully conceived and processed images were the norm. Really a counter-point to the Eastern (New York City) based movement of the Pictorialists. Ansel Adams was a pictorialist early in his career. The Modernest movement has been with us as the predominant art / photography form until about a decade or more ago.

With the advent of cheap pocket cameras and later smart phones with images posted on the internet, photographic images became ubiquitous. The camera doesn't matter, but rather it is all about creating images that are emotionless and candid observations of the world, generally with very muted, flat lighting. This is known as "post-photographic" photography. This did not arrive overnight; take a look at the work of the Düsseldorf School and the work of Bernd and Hilla Becher or Andreas Gursky; the emotionless approach started in the 1960s and 1970s. The American Steven Shore is another well known modern photographer who worked with boring, everyday subjects that were not fancied up. Like with the pictorialists, I'm not generally a fan, but I can see the appeal. This activity requires a "body of work", artist's statements, etc.

The fashion industry does something quite similar, but the reason is a bit different. The models are nothing more than a prop to display the fashion items, regardless of whether these are clothing, makeup, accessories, etc. The model is not supposed to visually compete with the product and not distract the viewer from the product.

Carefully said, I work in three different genres; I do strictly commercial type work for people who need these types of images but can't pay for a photographer, I do club style work that go into local, regional and national competitions and I do more modern work targeting institutions that look for modern contemporary stuff. All three styles have virtually no overlap; commercial shots don't do well in club competitions, club work will not get work into curated shows or galleries and modern post-photographic work will not do well in club competitions.