Hi Bruce -you seem to be forgetting the Exposure Compensation (EC) part of spot metering. If you meter the shaded area, or any other area for that matter, it is YOU who decides how you want that area exposed. See the Kodak chart that I posted earlier and look at the 'EC' column.Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital
So, -take the shaded log wall in your shot- you would spot meter it with zero EC.
It might tell you f/8 at 1/100 sec. As you should know, if you leave the EC at zero, the wall will come out mid-gray.
However, lets say that you want it to come out light gray, you would add 2/3EV compensation (so now f/8 at 1/60 sec) but then there would be a chance that the clouds at upper left will blow - but that is your choice. On the other hand, if you wanted to retain some cloud detail, you would spot-meter the cloud and add say 2EV compensation to make it not gray. In that case, your log wall could come out darker than you would like -but you can't have it both ways.
Exposure Compensation - a powerful tool when spot metering, or any other kind of metering for that matter.
HTH.
Incident Metering
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20th September 2020, 12:11 AMxpatUSARe: Incident Metering
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20th September 2020, 12:15 AMManfred MRe: Incident MeteringBruce - the reason people spot meter multiple areas in a scene is to understand the lighting. It lets them use that data to determine what they consider to be an appropriate exposure. That is a practice from the film days, as is the Kodak chart that Ted has mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital
With the histogram that the camera produces, especially the RGB one, I get all the information I need to ensure I have a well exposed image. If it is a landscape or architectural shot and the exposure looks like it will not handled the highlights or shadow detail well, I will bracket the shots and blend them in post.
That being said, I know a number of older photographers that still shoot very much like they did in the film days. If it works for them, that's great.
The only time I use my spot metering head (in conjunction with the incident head) is in the studio to look at my flash drop-off, when I set up my studio flash. With a multiple light setup, I do want to understand how dark the background will be.
Shots like the one you have shown in this thread, I would never bother using a hand-held meter. In my view, too much work for too little value. Almost 100% of my in-camera metering is in matrix mode although I have shot with other metering configurations from time to time. -
20th September 2020, 12:15 AMDigitalRe: Incident Metering
Ted, I really appreciate the explanation.
Bruce :D -
20th September 2020, 12:18 AMManfred MRe: Incident MeteringFrankly, for any type of metering. Snowy scenes or night photography, I use it all the time when I use matrix metering.Quote:
Originally Posted by xpatUSA
Of course, in the pre-exposure compensation days with film cameras, we would compensate by over or under exposing based on what the camera's meter reading suggested. -
20th September 2020, 12:42 AMDanKRe: Incident MeteringBruce,Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital
If you have too large a dynamic range, no form of metering will solve the problem.
One point of spot metering is to take control back from the camera's computer and give it to you. Having used it extensively for most of my life, I think of it less as a way to get the camera to set the exposure than as a way to give me information I can use to set the exposure. Sometimes the metered value will be a good exposure, but often not. A simple example, which I've given before, is that a quick way of approximating a good exposure, if you happen to be Causcasian, is to spot meter off your palm--making sure the palm is getting the same light as the subject--and opening up a stop because the average Caucasion palm is about a stop brighter than neutral gray. It's the same principle when spot metering snow: that won't give you a good exposure, but taking that value and opening up two stops probably will.
If you think you may have problems clipping at the dark end, I would personally use a combination of spot metering and the histogram. I'd meter off the brightest areas and open up two stops, as a start. Then I'd look at the histogram to see if that got me nearly to the right end. If not, I'd open up a little more. Once the histogram is near the right hand end, I'd see whether I was clipping in the shadows. If so, the solution would be bracketing, not a different metering mode. In this approach, the spot meter is never giving you the exposure you want to use; it's giving you information that will help you find that exposure.
Dan -
20th September 2020, 12:42 AMxpatUSARe: Incident MeteringQuite so. I did not intend to suggest otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manfred M
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20th September 2020, 12:46 AMDigitalRe: Incident Metering
Manfred, and Dan: thanks for the information.
Bruce :) -
21st September 2020, 10:45 PMDigitalRe: Incident Metering
I am beginning to think that there is no "right" metering system. In the scheme of things, I have lately been shooting activities at Lake Carroll. I find that Matrix metering works just fine for me since some of the activity can materialize in a split second.
Spot metering, to me, takes more time to set up. I can see its value in landscape photography where, by its nature, you have more time to set up.
In regards to center weighted metering, it is my understanding it is good for portraits.
Bruce :D -
21st September 2020, 10:57 PMManfred MRe: Incident MeteringIn my experience, centre weighted metering has been made obsolete by matrix metering (Nikon speak) or evaluative metering (Canon speak). Centre weighted has been around almost as long as TTL (through the lens) metering has been available on SLR cameras. The only reason camera manufacturers include it is for people who have been shooting that way all their life and are comfortable with it. In my testing it is not as accurate as matrix metering for portraiture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital
You've already read my views on spot metering and when I use it in #62. -
21st September 2020, 11:06 PMxpatUSARe: Incident MeteringI've no idea what goes on at Lake Carroll but, if the scene suits Matrix metering with no EC, then might as well let the camera do it for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital
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21st September 2020, 11:15 PMDigitalRe: Incident Metering
Ted, in response to your post: a lot of waterfowl activity.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...080&fit=bounds
Bruce :D -
22nd September 2020, 12:09 AMxpatUSARe: Incident MeteringCool. I see what you mean about spot-metering as regards that scenario. I shoot still scenes all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital
Almost off-topic now but, while researching for this thread, I found that my old Sigma SD15 DSLR has a 77-segment metering sensor and which can do "evaluative" metering. I've never used it though, neither have I used the "center-weighted" mode.
Also, I found that it has a "center-spot" mode which looks at the average of five segments in the middle, apparently 8.8% of the metering area. This is in addition to the "spot" mode which looks at one segment and is 1.3% of the metering area.
Apparently, the "center-spot" is good for back-lit people shots.
"There's more to metering than meets the eye" ... ;) -
22nd September 2020, 01:09 AMManfred MRe: Incident MeteringIf you want a middle gray face, then sure, but as Dan has mentioned, you would want to stop up a stop for Caucasian skin. That of course will mean a super bright background.Quote:
Originally Posted by xpatUSA
On the other hand if I want to shoot a silhouette, I know I am going to have to expose around 4 stops below the spot meter reading to push the subject to be close to black. -
22nd September 2020, 01:31 AMxpatUSARe: Incident MeteringOK, do we really have to do this every time, responding as if I know nothing about metering and EC?Quote:
If you want a middle gray face, then sure, but as Dan has mentioned, you would want to stop up a stop for Caucasian skin. That of course will mean a super bright background.Quote:
Originally Posted by xpatUSA https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/fo...post-right.png Apparently, the "center-spot" is good for back-lit people shots.
Followed as usual by what you do ...Quote:
On the other hand if I want to shoot a silhouette, I know I am going to have to expose around 4 stops below the spot meter reading to push the subject to be close to black.
I can only hope that the intent is to educate others, but it doesn't feel like it. :( -
22nd September 2020, 02:57 AMManfred MRe: Incident MeteringMeant for Bruce, Ted not you. I know you understand this stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by xpatUSA
The problem that a lot of people have is that they seem to think that spot metering is a panacea, when it is really more of a "back to basics". One has understand that the metered reading does not directly drive the appropriate exposure, unless one goes through the mental calculations as per the Kodak chart you posted.
It's all good to learn how everything fits together, but experience is really what one ultimately needs to get the exposure right. I still remember the first photographer who mentored me when I was in high school. He had shot so much and so often that he intuitively "knew" the correct exposure of a scene by just looking at it. Now that's experience. -
22nd September 2020, 12:15 PMDanKRe: Incident Metering
In my experience, the problem is more general: not thinking that spot metering is a panacea, but thinking that SOME metering mode is the panacea that will make it unnecessary to think about exposure. Modern matrix / evaluative systems have become so good that often they do get it more or less right, and that encourages the view that they are more than they are.
The same has happened with AF systems.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk -
22nd September 2020, 03:01 PMxpatUSARe: Incident MeteringI guess I was fooled by the use of the word "you" in conjunction with a quote from my post. Now I get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manfred M
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22nd September 2020, 03:02 PMpschluteRe: Incident MeteringAgree. My advice to anyone starting out in photography is to put the camera in Manual and spend an afternoon in the garden taking pictures and reviewing the results and histogram on the screen. Dont use the meter at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by DanK
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22nd September 2020, 03:49 PMxpatUSARe: Incident MeteringBeen there, done that. It is most instructive. The log response of the eye certainly works against one, as I have found!Quote:
Originally Posted by pschlute
Live histogram is quite useful in that regard (instant review) especially the three-channel kind -which my cameras do not have. -
22nd September 2020, 04:17 PMpschluteRe: Incident MeteringWe are so used to relying on automation these days that I have had a few raised eyebrows when I have made the suggestion.Quote:
Originally Posted by xpatUSA
But we would not expect to learn to drive a car using cruise control before we know what the accelerator pedal does. We would not expect a pilot to learn to fly by autopilot alone before he knows what the ailerons and elevator controls do *.
I use an auto mode on my camera most of the time when hand held....Av. But I know when to step in with compensation. For tripod work or when using flash I am 99% in Manual mode. Perhaps because I learned on a totally manual camera it is second nature to me.
* A big debating point in the aviation industry for some years now that new pilots are taught to rely too much on the automatics.