The Demise of the EF-M and EOS M series?

[Tronhard]

Well, Canon rumors and some other websites are rife with suggestions that next year Canon will announce the discontinuation of the M series development and will sell off its remaining EF-M stock. One final release may be the M7, a flagship 34MP body with DPAF, IBIS and a bunch of other features. The suggestion is that this has been in development for some time and Canon will release it as it has gone too far to scrap.

As one who has an M and 2xM5's, plus almost all of the EF-M lenses, I view this possibility with mixed feelings. I agree that Canon needed to pare down on its range of lens mounts and with the limited number of EF-M lenses out there I can understand that this was the easiest one to dispense with. Especially given the suggestions that Canon will be releasing other RF compatible bodies aimed at the lower end of the market. What I have seen already is disappointment from vloggers and people who have wanted to travel light with small ILC bodies and lenses - into which category I belong.

The suggestion that the M7 is being released would imply that this was a relatively recent move. So, it will be interesting to see if 3rd party lens manufacturers have been aware of this for some time, in which case they may not have anything for the EF-M in the pipeline, or if this has come too later in their lens development cycle and they will continue to release some (hopefully) nice glass.

At present I have no skin in the RF game, so I will ponder when things become clearer as to whether I shall get the last M7 or just move on to the R6, for example.

[xpatUSA]

Not sure what all those "M" and "R" acronyms are, Trev, but Sigma has behaved similarly with their SA-mount cameras and matching lenses. They've already gone mirror-less incorporating the Leica L-mount.

I've kept one Sigma DLSR and two SA-mount lenses ... all the rest have been sold.

[Tronhard]

I don't expect this will make much sense to those who are not Canon users, but since Canon still own the major market share I though it was apropos to make this post.
For those who may be confused about the Acronyms:

Mount Body	Camera Series	Lenses	With Adaptor
EF	EOS 1d, 5D, 6D	EF & EF-S
EF-S	EOS(Rebel) xxxD, XXD, 7D	EF-S
EF-M	EOS M series	EF-M	EF & EF-S
RF	EOS RP, R, R5, R6	RF	EF & EF-S

As you can see from the table, the EF-M series had limited adaptability because of its tiny lens mount, making it incompatible with the new RF standard.

[William W]

. . . One final release may be the M7, a flagship 34MP body with DPAF, IBIS and a bunch of other features. The suggestion is that this has been in development for some time and Canon will release it as it has gone too far to scrap. . .

I'd be interested in adding that M7 to my kit, if it does have IBIS, which makes my set of third party fast Primes, just a little bit more useful/flexible.

WW

[DanK]

It makes sense, given the shrinking market, not to maintain lenses for 4 mounts. There have been other signs simplifying their line-up. One was ending their separate higher-end APS-C body series that ran from the 40D to the 7D II, in effect merging that with the 60D, etc. line at the top with the 90D. (I never saw the point of 5 lines of DSLRs even at the outset.)

And then recently, credible rumors came out that the 5D Mark V has been scrapped, ending the venerable 5D series. If true, that's a huge move (and one that I regret, as a 5D shooter for the past decade or so).

[William W]

Hi Trev.

I am not concerned about this. It seemed to me that the EOS-M series was a a paddle in the water mainly for the reason of having a swimmer in the race and never a long term goal of Canon to seek the gold medal. In any case I expect that my M5 will give me many years of good value for money: if anything I have 'overspent' on the set of fast Primes, which don't have much use anywhere else.

***

Re your table to explain the ins and outs of Canon's Camera and Lens compatibility, I reckon it's worth noting that the term "EF-S" is sometimes used to describe two (different) things.

I believe Canon meant it to describe a Lens or Camera with a particular Lens Bayonet Mount. My understanding is that is how you have used it in your table.

The other meaning, which I believe has crept in via the www of misinformation, is to describe a Lens, usually third party, with an Image Circle suited only for APS-C Format: simply search "Tamron"/"Sigma"/"Tokina" . . . EF-S Lenses" to see what I mean.

All these third party lenses are EF Mount Lenses (by Canon's definition), it is simply that they have an Image Circle which only covers to APS-C Format size.

The significance of the above delineation is that EF-S Lenses cannot physically mount on Cameras with only an EF Bayonet Mount, whereas those third party above mentioned lenses, (all being EF Mount Lenses) can mount on EOS 1D, 5D and 6D series cameras, albeit exhibiting an optical vignette.

With that as background, I have made a few minor changes to your table for your consideration:
> inclusion of the D30, D60 and D2000 Series (simply because I know you’re a big fan!)
> inclusion of xxxxD series cameras
> acknowledgement of dual EF and EF-S mounts on the xxxxD, xxxD, xxD and 7D Series cameras
> special note re 10D

EOS Series Camera Lines	Body Mount	Lenses which will Mount	Lenses which will Mount with Adaptor
EOS D30, D60, D2000	EF only	EF only
EOS 1D, 5D, 6D	EF only	EF only
EOS xxxxD, xxxD, xxD#, 7D	EF-S & EF	EF-S & EF
EOS M	EF-M	EF-M	EF & EF-S
EOS RP, R, R5, R6	RF	RF	EF & EF-S

# = EXCEPT EOS 10D, which is and EF Mount ONLY camera

WW

[Tronhard]

Hi Trev.

I am not concerned about this. It seemed to me that the EOS-M series was a a paddle in the water mainly for the reason of having a swimmer in the race and never a long term goal of Canon to seek the gold medal. In any case I expect that my M5 will give me many years of good value for money: if anything I have 'overspent' on the set of fast Primes, which don't have much use anywhere else.

***

Re your table to explain the ins and outs of Canon's Camera and Lens compatibility, I reckon it's worth noting that the term "EF-S" is sometimes used to describe two (different) things.

I believe Canon meant it to describe a Lens or Camera with a particular Lens Bayonet Mount. My understanding is that is how you have used it in your table.

The other meaning, which I believe has crept in via the www of misinformation, is to describe a Lens, usually third party, with an Image Circle suited only for APS-C Format: simply search "Tamron"/"Sigma"/"Tokina" . . . EF-S Lenses" to see what I mean.

All these third party lenses are EF Mount Lenses (by Canon's definition), it is simply that they have an Image Circle which only covers to APS-C Format size.

The significance of the above delineation is that EF-S Lenses cannot physically mount on Cameras with only an EF Bayonet Mount, whereas those third party above mentioned lenses, (all being EF Mount Lenses) can mount on EOS 1D, 5D and 6D series cameras, albeit exhibiting an optical vignette.

With that as background, I have made a few minor changes to your table for your consideration:
> inclusion of the D30, D60 and D2000 Series (simply because I know you’re a big fan!)
> inclusion of xxxxD series cameras
> acknowledgement of dual EF and EF-S mounts on the xxxxD, xxxD, xxD and 7D Series cameras
> special note re 10D

EOS Series Camera Lines	Body Mount	Lenses which will Mount	Lenses which will Mount with Adaptor
EOS D30, D60, D2000	EF only	EF only
EOS 1D, 5D, 6D	EF only	EF only
EOS xxxxD, xxxD, xxD#, 7D	EF-S & EF	EF-S & EF
EOS M	EF-M	EF-M	EF & EF-S
EOS RP, R, R5, R6	RF	RF	EF & EF-S

# = EXCEPT EOS 10D, which is and EF Mount ONLY camera

WW

Hi Bill:

I hope you are well and staying safe over there in the land of Oz!

I have a fair bit of investment in the M series, with the three bodies (1xM, 2xM5's) and the 11-22, 15-45, 18-55, 18-150, 55-200, 22mm and 32mm lenses - in fact about the only one I am missing is the 28mm macro! For me, this system provided an acceptable MILC system that was small and compact and I see no reason why it should not continue to do so, especially considering almost everything I do is for display on digital screens.

As regards the table I was absolutely cognizant of the two interpretations of the term APS-C, hence my attempt to delineate them with my columns for body mount and lens type to the right. Maybe I left that open to interpretation, if so I appreciate your efforts to clarify.

[William W]

Yes, we're better than many here, thanks for asking: trust all aspects are going OK with you.

***

The compactness of the M System I like too. One of the reasons why I bought into the EOS-M System was because of my investment in the EF Lens System - and I thought that I'd use those EF Lenses with the adaptor on my M5: that proved to be erroneous. The 'little' lenses are well balanced for the M system, I hardly ever use my EF to EF-M Adaptor.

***

I understood that you would know the two different meanings of "EF-S", my intent was to underscore that for the general readership.

Interestingly, the original (and the only) point I wanted to make about your table was that the xxxD, xxD, 7D Cameras have a dual Mount, accepting both EF-S and EF Lenses.

Then I got on a roll of refining - it's probably a bit of Covid-Boredom.

Take care.

Bill

[rpcrowe]

I gave up on Canon after I purchased the EOS 6D Mk.2...

I had been shooting Canon for a long-long while and each camera introduced was an improvement on the previous model or models.

The 40D was certainly an improvement on the 10D, 20D and 30D models which preceded it! The 7D Mark-2 was an improvement over the 40D and the 7D Mark-1.

I therefore did not do the requisite research when I found a 6D Mark-2 at a very good price. I assumed that since the 6D was a good camera, the 6D2 would be an improvement.

I was exceptionally disappointed in the 6D2, especially in the focusing array which was copied directly from the APSC 80D. As a result... there were no focusing points at the sides and top of the frame. However, the 6D2 did have one advantage; face recognition in auto focus. I liked that but, it was only available in live view which (for me) was difficult to use in the bright sun.

Since I enjoyed using face recognition quite well, I tried a camera which would allow facial recognition using an eve-level viewfinder. This was the Sony A6500. To make a long story short, Sony provided the type of auto focus for which I had been longing. As Sony's AF and Eye-AF became even more efficient even incorporating animal Eye-AF, I eventually sold off all of my Canon DSLR equipment and replaced it with Sony gear.

I have not looked back and I am glad that I was able to liquidate my Canon gear while I could still get a decent price for it...

[Tronhard]

Hi Richard

I hope you are not too affected by the massive wildfires raging along the Pacific Coast. I really feel for all of those impacted - whether burnt out or risking life and limb to fight these apocalyptic conflagrations. Now, on the East Coast I understand that you have an unprecedented 5 tropical storms or hurricanes stacked up and threatening... Not good news at all. Add all that to COVID and things are rather dire at the moment.

I have actually bought the Sony RX-10MkIV, which I consider to be by far the best bridge camera around, but while I love the hardware and many of the features, the menus drive me crazy, especially having grown used Canon's menu system for so long.

The camera market is an interesting thing... I avoided the 6D series, sticking to the 5DIII, IV and DsR. I agree that for a while Canon hung back on some of the tech and companies like Sony forged ahead, especially with IBIS and Face and eye detect. It seems to me that with the release of the RF mount and the R4 and R6 bodies, Canon have come back with a vengeance. Their ability to combine IS and IBIS and engage with legacy EF lenses is a huge step forward, and from a photographer's perspective (I don't shoot video), these cameras can hold there own against any competitor. I have sold very little of my camera equipment over the years, so I have a veritable museum of mostly Canon gear from the D30, released in 2000, to the 90D.

With an ever-shrinking market I cannot see many brands continuing as before, year upon year we see dismal sales and financial figures reported by the traditional camera makers. The announcements by Olympus are but a straw in the wind I suspect. With the new technology being offered, I think brands like Sony and Canon will continue. I am a little less confident in Nikon and perhaps Panasonic have an edge in the video market. But I cannot see all the players surviving.

[rpcrowe]

Trev...

Thank you for your concerns. The area in which I live (San Diego County) which is in the most southwestern portion of California, has not (YET) been hit by the scourge of fire. Our wind conditions that are most favorable for fire don't usually hit us until October or so. Our air quality is moderately bad from the fire burning to the north of us...

This is a terrible time: COVID-19, economic collapse, fires and tropical storms are battering our nation while we have a traitorous circus clown who is supposed to be leading us.

It is really frightening to consider the end results for America. We don't really know what will happen if and when the clown is voted out of office. I didn't spend 32-years in the military only to fear for the Constitution the way I do now...

I remember, laying in a hooch in Vietnam, on the Cambodian border, listening to the U.S. election returns while being rattled by B-52 strikes and worrying about who would be elected president. However, I never had to worry about what would happen when the election was complete. That is a great worry now!

[Tronhard]

Richard

The results you speak of are not going to be limited to America. They say if the US sneezes we all catch a cold, but one thing the last four years have done is make those dependent (and possibly over-so) look to other sources of support, including themselves. The world is changing.

It is a sad truth that COVID is overshadowing the other, arguably bigger crisis of or world - Climate Change. We stand on the cusp of a major decision. To invest the recovery in the current business and economic models or re-jig what we spend those funds on to engage with new, environmentally and socially responsible models. If we stay with business as usual then we will have spent the money that could have been used to transition us to mitigate the climate risks and there will be nothing left in the coffers when we desperately need it.

[DanK]

It is a sad truth that COVID is overshadowing the other, arguably bigger crisis of or world - Climate Change. We stand on the cusp of a major decision. To invest the recovery in the current business and economic models or re-jig what we spend those funds on to engage with new, environmentally and socially responsible models. If we stay with business as usual then we will have spent the money that could have been used to transition us to mitigate the climate risks and there will be nothing left in the coffers when we desperately need it.

Unfortunately, it's all too clear which way the US will go if our sociopath-in-chief manages to lie and manipulate himself into another term in office. He has already taken very large steps on several environmental issues that will increase markedly the American contribution to global warming.

[loosecanon]

If I may return to the thread.

The M series provides a small compact system using the ASP C sensor size. The cameras are small, and lenses also, very well made and giving excellent image quality. There has been criticism about lack of choice of lenses, but the range does cover most bases for a system designed for those wanting to travel without the bulk and weight of larger SLRs. I don't want large lenses to carry all day. A full kit fits in a small bag. It can easily be carried all day.

Advances in sensors mean smaller maximum aperture lenses are very usable, if one must use larger apertures then adapters are available for those wishing to carry a heavy bag.

In conclusion, I think most criticism comes from those who are not the target users of the M series.

[Tronhard]

By and large I agree with this. The compact size and light weight of these units was why I invested in the system and I absolutely agree that the target audience was for those who liked to travel and for vloggers - it certainly was for me. As a stills photographer, the "flagship" of the series was the M5. The later M50 I saw as more of a vloggers' camera, since it had improved processor power for video and it dispensed with the EV dial on the top. What it DID have was a fully articulating screen that I wish was on the M5. I was always perplexed by the numbering system of the M series as it seemed haphazard to me.

If the rumours are correct and the M7 is being released because it had progressed too far before the decision to can the M-series, it would suggest that this was a relatively recent move. So, it will be interesting to see if 3rd party lens manufacturers have been aware of this for some time, in which case they may not have anything for the EF-M in the pipeline, or if this has come too late in their lens development cycle and they will continue to release some (hopefully) nice glass.

If I may return to the thread.

The M series provides a small compact system using the ASP C sensor size. The cameras are small, and lenses also, very well made and giving excellent image quality. There has been criticism about lack of choice of lenses, but the range does cover most bases for a system designed for those wanting to travel without the bulk and weight of larger SLRs. I don't want large lenses to carry all day. A full kit fits in a small bag. It can easily be carried all day.

Advances in sensors mean smaller maximum aperture lenses are very usable, if one must use larger apertures then adapters are available for those wishing to carry a heavy bag.

In conclusion, I think most criticism comes from those who are not the target users of the M series.

[rpcrowe]

"The M series provides a small compact system using the ASP C sensor size. The cameras are small, and lenses also, very well made and giving excellent image quality. There has been criticism about lack of choice of lenses, "

Lack of lens choice was a mitigating factor when I first considered the Sony system. This was especially true when it came to mid-range zoom lenses. I tried several Sony mid range zooms, the kit 28-70mm and the Sony-Zeiss 24-70mm and was not overly impressed with either lens. The Gold Standard of mid range zoom lenses, the 24-70mm f/2.8 G-Master was both too expensive and too large and heavy for my choice. So I mostly shot with primes at the beginning of my courtship with Sony mirrorless cameras.

However, when the full frame Sony A7iii was introduced at a decent price, I made the leap and purchased the full frame camera and the Tamron 28-75mm f/2.8 lens. I was quite impressed with all facets of this lens and tried it with the Sony A6400 on a day trip to visit the Hollywood Cemetery for the "Day of the Dead" celebration.

I was also quite impressed with this combination. It was enjoyable to shoot with and the results were all that I could have wished for...


Third party manufacturers are turning out great lenses for the Sony E-Mount system: Sigma, Tamron, Rokinon and others have introduced some really nice lenses in e-mount. IMO, the reason that the third party lenses have become so widely available is that Sony has retained the e-mount for both APSC and full frame cameras. This is probably a very good decision for Sony rather than flooding the market with various and sundry cameras with different style lens mounts.

All lenses with Sony e-mounts can be used on all Sony cameras. Even lenses designed for APSC can be used on full frame cameras in APSC mode and, of course, all lenses designed for full frame Sony mirrorless cameras can be used on all Sony e-mount bodies - both full frame and APSC...

So any e-mount lens can be used on every Sony mirrorless camera ranging from the original A6000 through the A9ii. Even the new Sony A7C compact camera uses the same mount...