Ring Flash for macro and other uses

[Thlayle]

Quick question, hopefully:

I have very little knowledge of and experience with flash photography of any kind.

I have started using a ring flash (Godox ML-150) for macro and I am happy with how it is working.

Is a flash like this possibly suitable for other purposes, such as taking photos of people (not portraiture per se)?

I ask because I do very little flash photography and have cheap equipment. Like all cheap stuff it doesn't last and there are of course there are often other drawbacks. In any case, my cheap speed light gave out and I am wondering if I can expect to use the ring flash in situations other than macro.

Thanks,

Randy

[rpcrowe]

My primary objection to using ring flash in pictures of people is the donut shaped catchlights they produce in peoples eyes...

However, some photographers like this catchlight effect and even use the ring lights for portraiture.

I tend to think that the shape of these donut shaped catchlights in peoples eyes look like photos out of 1950's horror movies...

Ring lights also produce very flat shadow less light.

I tend to use bounce flash augmented by a Joe Demb Flash Diffuser Pro (or a Chinese copy of that diffuser-reflector) in most of my flash photography. The Flip-It portion of the Flash Diffuser Pro allows decent lighting even when there is no flat surface (such as ceiling or walls) off which to bounce the flash.

I would not purchase a ring flash for other than macro or other close up work but, it that were my only flash, I would certainly use it and see whether the results were what I like...

[DanK]

In general, direct flash--in particular direct flash that's close to the lens, and a ring light is as close as you can get--provides poor results with people. Harsh shadows, reflections, etc. The best, if you are not moving the light off the camera, is to do something like what Richard does.

[Manfred M]

I do a lot of flash photography and do own a ring flash, but rarely use it, mostly because it is a pain to use and one has to be too close to the subject to get nice, soft light. When I did use it, I primarily used it as a fill light. On axis fill works extremely well, and gives strong results.

I have been using a 5 ft white reflective umbrella for on-axis fill and have recently bought a 7 ft white umbrella that I have not used yet. I love large light modifiers and generally detest the small modifiers that Richard likes because of the quality of light output.

[Thlayle]

Thanks to all. Very helpful comments. For as much as I use it, I guess I will experiment with the ring flash for these other "non-macro" situations. Once in a while, I get asked to take some photos of groups of people or event settings, so I may want to expand my horizons. Good to know your thoughts on this equipment.

Regards,

Randy

[rpcrowe]

Using ring flash for "groups of people or event settings" might present a problem because ring flash generally are not particularly powerful...

I don't know what camera gear you are working with but, if it is Canon, you can obtain several hotshoe used flashes used (such as the 430EX) at very low prices. I recently sold one for $25 USD...

If you are working with Sony gear there are several relatively inexpensive new Godox units that are quite decent.

I don't follow Nikon or Olympus gear but, suspect that there might be used hotshoe flashes available at a decent price for these brands, Of course, there are also new Godox units available for Nikon and other cameras.

If choosing Flashpoint/Godox hotshoe flashes, you will have a choice between a Flashpoint Zoom Mini and Flashpoint Zoom Lion TTL (or their Godox equivalents) which have very decent TTL and master/slave capabilities. There are also non-TTL Flashpoint/Godox units available at even cheaper prices

[xpatUSA]

<> I have been using a 5 ft white reflective umbrella for on-axis fill and have recently bought a 7 ft white umbrella that I have not used yet. I love large light modifiers and generally detest the small modifiers that Richard likes because of the quality of light output.

Agreed. Also, the bigger the light source size, the lesser is the dreaded 'inverse square law' effect.

[William W]

Agreed. Also, the bigger the light source size, the lesser is the dreaded 'inverse square law' effect.

That's why, specifically in this regard, the Sun is such a "good" (i.e. consistent) light source.

WW

[rpcrowe]

An inexpensive and easily transported solution to single flash portrait photography using a large modifier is seen in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuoc53wcnbc

I like this type of umbrella because light is not bouncing all over the place as it does with reflector umbrellas that do not have the white baffle or especially with shoot through umbrellas...

However, outdoors I like shoot through umbrellas as an inexpensive and easily set up modifier...

There us a limit to the size of the umbrella used and that limit might be the capability of the flash to fill the umbrella. As an example, I don't think that a hotshoe flash will fill a 60-inch diameter umbrella... I often use that size umbrella when shooting with the larger Godox TTL 360 flash unit which has considerably more output than the typical hotshoe flash. A 48 inch umbrella would be fine for a standard hotshoe flash...

I have a modified flash bracket which can hold my flash 24 inches above the camera and which enables me to fire the flash away from the subject into a 24 inch umbrella reflecting back to the subjects face... Using this rig and a hand held reflector from below the subject's face will give pretty nice butterfly lighting...

[Manfred M]

An inexpensive and easily transported solution to single flash portrait photography using a large modifier is seen in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuoc53wcnbc

I like this type of umbrella because light is not bouncing all over the place as it does with reflector umbrellas that do not have the white baffle or especially with shoot through umbrellas...

However, outdoors I like shoot through umbrellas as an inexpensive and easily set up modifier...

There us a limit to the size of the umbrella used and that limit might be the capability of the flash to fill the umbrella. As an example, I don't think that a hotshoe flash will fill a 60-inch diameter umbrella... I often use that size umbrella when shooting with the larger Godox TTL 360 flash unit which has considerably more output than the typical hotshoe flash. A 48 inch umbrella would be fine for a standard hotshoe flash...

I have a modified flash bracket which can hold my flash 24 inches above the camera and which enables me to fire the flash away from the subject into a 24 inch umbrella reflecting back to the subjects face... Using this rig and a hand held reflector from below the subject's face will give pretty nice butterfly lighting...

I have never used the type of light modifier shown in the video, so can’t comment on it, but this guy does not understand flash or exposure.

Anyone who says they vary shutter speed to control exposure in a situation where ambient light does not factor into the image and judges exposure by looking at the image on the camera’s screen clearly does not understand the basics of using flash.

There is no issue at all using a speedlight with a large reflector. The first method Is to use the wide angle setting on the speedlight; setting the spread manually to 24mm or wider works. The other method is to mount the speedlight on a separate light stand and move it far enough back to get an appropriate spread. That is how I plan to shoot with my 84” umbrella.

[xpatUSA]

... There is a limit to the size of the umbrella used and that limit might be the capability of the flash to fill the umbrella.

Richard, I don't understand that opinion, sorry.

As an example, I don't think that a hotshoe flash will fill a 60-inch diameter umbrella <>

What do you mean by "fill"?

[Manfred M]

Richard - let's put this argument about a speedlight not being able to fill a large umbrella to rest:

Here is my test setup - A Wescott 7ft (213 cm / 84") parabolic umbrella that I am firing my Nikon SB-900 Speedlight into. The first shot is the setup and the second is the light coming back from the flash (exposure adjusted so that the umbrella does not burn out).










Looks like there is light reflecting off the whole umbrella. I set my flash to a 17mm spread and put the wide angle diffuser down as well. Is there drop-off at the edges? Of course, just like with any umbrella (or for that matter any light modifier); they all have hot spots at the centre.

[xpatUSA]

Richard - let's put this argument about a speedlight not being able to fill a large umbrella to rest:

Here is my test setup - A Wescott 7ft (213 cm / 84") parabolic umbrella that I am firing my Nikon SB-900 Speedlight into. The first shot is the setup and the second is the light coming back from the flash (exposure adjusted so that the umbrella does not burn out).



Looks like there is light reflecting off the whole umbrella. I set my flash to a 17mm spread and put the wide angle diffuser down as well. Is there drop-off at the edges? Of course, just like with any umbrella (or for that matter any light modifier); they all have hot spots at the centre ...

Good example, Manfred ... and since a ring flash (subject of thread) has a typical coverage angle of 80 degs it would cover or "fill" that big umbrella from about 4ft or more away.

Perhaps Richard is thinking of "filling" in a different way ...

[Manfred M]

Good example, Manfred ... and since a ring flash (subject of thread) has a typical coverage angle of 80 degs it would cover or "fill" that big umbrella from about 4ft or more away.

Perhaps Richard is thinking of "filling" in a different way ...

Yes and no; ring flash is a technique that is generally referred to as "on-axis lighting" where the (usually fill) light is along the optical axis of the camera.

When the umbrella with flash is set up the way I have shown it, the photographer stands in front of the umbrella and shoots from that position; also on-axis lighting. The light modifier is so large that the light wraps around the shooter and delivers a nice, soft fill light.

The advantage of the latter technique is that the photographer can be farther way from the subject than with a ring light (other than when a ring light is used for macro work) and still get a beautiful quality of light. I had been using that technique with my 5 ft / 60" / 152 cm umbrella, but the larger modifier lets me light up a larger scene / stand farther away.

I lit this scene with the 5' umbrella using this technique and I was pretty well at the limit of what I could use it for, hence the reason I bought the 7" unit.

[xpatUSA]

Yes and no; ring flash is a technique that is generally referred to as "on-axis lighting" where the (usually fill) light is along the optical axis of the camera.

When the umbrella with flash is set up the way I have shown it, the photographer stands in front of the umbrella and shoots from that position; also on-axis lighting. The light modifier is so large that the light wraps around the shooter and delivers a nice, soft fill light.

Ah, yes, pardon my red herring!

Hopefully, Richard will tell us what he meant by "fill" and put it totally to bed.

[Manfred M]

Ah, yes, pardon my red herring!

Hopefully, Richard will tell us what he meant by "fill" and put it totally to bed.

Meant by "fill"? Most photographers, especially portrait photographers like Richard, would answer this question by talking about a second light source that is used to soften the shadows in the image.

There is a jargon used in portrait photography:

1. Key (main) light - primary light used to illuminate the subject;

2. Fill light - light used to soften (reduce) the shadows on the subject;

3. Hair light - separate light used to illuminate the subject's hair, often to separate it from the background;

4. Rim light (sometimes referred to as a "kicker" light - a light used to outline the subject and separate it from the background;

5. Background light - a light on the background to help separate the subject from the background; and

6. Accent lights - lights aimed at specific areas to highlight specific areas in the image to draw attention to them - this could be on the hands of the subject or on a prop in the image. For example, lights on the hands of the subject or perhaps lights on the parts of the them image - if the image is of a doctor, perhaps the stethoscope, if the image is of a professional athlete, perhaps on a piece of sports equipment, etc.

That pretty well overs off most of the typical lighting choices used in portraiture. In most portraiture a key light will always be used (even with existing light images, for instance the key light could be a window). Often a fill light will also be used, sometimes an active light, sometimes a passive light (reflector). The fill light is virtually always not as bright as the key light.

[xpatUSA]

There is a limit to the size of the umbrella used and that limit might be the capability of the flash to fill the umbrella. As an example, I don't think that a hotshoe flash will fill a 60-inch diameter umbrella... I often use that size umbrella when shooting with the larger Godox TTL 360 flash unit which has considerably more output than the typical hotshoe flash. A 48 inch umbrella would be fine for a standard hotshoe flash...

What do you mean by "fill"?

Meant by "fill"? Most photographers, especially portrait photographers like Richard, would answer this question by talking about a second light source that is used to soften the shadows in the image.

<studio lighting edu.>

For some reason, it read to me like Richard was relating flash power to umbrella size without referencing the purpose of "a hot-shoe flash" - almost like the relationship of exposure illuminance to pixel well capacity. Without further input from Richard, I guess we're stuck as to what was really meant ...

[Manfred M]

For some reason, it read to me like Richard was relating flash power to umbrella size without referencing the purpose of "a hot-shoe flash, almost like the relationship of exposure illuminance to pixel well capacity. Without further input from Richard, I guess we're stuck as to what was really meant ...

We will have to wait for Richard to confirm, but my read on his statement was that he did not think that the "spread" from a speedlight was wide enough to fully utilize a large umbrella. That is why I did my test to demonstrate that it can.

I know one commercial photographer who uses an even larger umbrella and ends up setting up the umbrella on one light stand and setting up a speedlight on a second one so that he can move his speedlight (or studio flash) to a point where he gets the coverage he wants. Larger umbrellas have longer shafts, so this facilitates moving the speedlight farther away from the reflective surfaces of the umbrella. For instance, the shaft on my 43" umbrella is 23" long while the shaft of my 84" umbrella is 44" long.

[xpatUSA]

We will have to wait for Richard to confirm, but my read on his statement was that he did not think that the "spread" from a speedlight was wide enough to fully utilize a large umbrella. That is why I did my test to demonstrate that it can.

And a good test it was, as I commented previously. So Richard's mention of "more output" in "I often use that size umbrella when shooting with the larger Godox TTL 360 flash unit which has considerably more output than the typical hotshoe flash" is not relating flash power to umbrella size, if I understand you correctly ... i.e. he is not saying that a bigger umbrella needs more output to "fill" it.