More from the Limoges jazz festival

[Chataignier]

Group "Blaxbird" at the Ambassade jazz club

[DanK]

A striking portrait, but if you're open to suggestions: I'd crop the top. although the side lighting is dramatic, I'd do some dodging and burning to even out the lighting a bit and bring out a little detail on viewer's right. I'd burn a bit more to cool some hot spots. A quick and dirty edit is this:

[Manfred M]

I'm not a fan of images that are predominantly shadow detail (or mostly highlights). These are areas where the human visual system has problems differentiating individual tonal values. Yes, the image has drama, but there is virtually no separation of the subject (including what she is wearing) from the background.

If you look at the ACR view with the clipping indicator turned on, this issue becomes evident.

[DanK]

Ah, this is an old argument here. Unfortunately, I can't find the previous (long) thread about this.

This comment mixes two issues: the crushed blacks, and the separation of the subject from the background.

Re the issue of separation: I don't see this as a problem. I see it as part of the intention of the image.

The clipping indicator doesn't address that directly; it addresses the issue of crushed blacks in the background. That was the subject of the argument I was referring to. I see nothing wrong in using pure black if that is the photographer's intent. I think it's problematic when the photographer accidentally loses shadow detail. I use pure black backgrounds frequently for flower macros, and some of those images have been quite successful. If I recall, Ted posted a few classic photos by prominent photographers that use pure black.

Manfred, technically, this image reminds me of the low-key image you posted in Dark background

[escape]

I like it. The only thing I would try to do is clone the bottom right button and cover the splotchy thing on its left with it. The result would be two buttons on the bottom surrounded by black. Just a thought.

[Chataignier]

I like it. The only thing I would try to do is clone the bottom right button and cover the splotchy thing on its left with it. The result would be two buttons on the bottom surrounded by black. Just a thought.

Yes, I agree, I'd not really noticed the untidy details there. Good idea.

@dan - I like the bit of extra light on her face camera right - worth doing i agree.

[xpatUSA]

I played with the image by converting it to pure black and pure white, which was a bit artistic and the conversion completely removed all the band clutter in the scene. I used a 'threshold' effect in which anything between two 'levels'-style slider positions is converted to white and everything else is converted to black. Came out sort of Dali-esque ...

[lovelife65]

I love this image! My only comment is her forehead on my left has some bright spots, as well as her nose. Otherwise, I think it's a fantastic portrait, with a lot of nice emotion and interest.

[Manfred M]

Ah, this is an old argument here. Unfortunately, I can't find the previous (long) thread about this.

This comment mixes two issues: the crushed blacks, and the separation of the subject from the background.

Re the issue of separation: I don't see this as a problem. I see it as part of the intention of the image.

The clipping indicator doesn't address that directly; it addresses the issue of crushed blacks in the background. That was the subject of the argument I was referring to. I see nothing wrong in using pure black if that is the photographer's intent. I think it's problematic when the photographer accidentally loses shadow detail. I use pure black backgrounds frequently for flower macros, and some of those images have been quite successful. If I recall, Ted posted a few classic photos by prominent photographers that use pure black.

Manfred, technically, this image reminds me of the low-key image you posted in Dark background

Dan - no problem agreeing to disagree here.

The issues of tonal separation and crushed shadow detail are closely linked because they are close in tonal values. The separation between pure black (i.e. no data) and the darkest shades of gray are going to be challenging as this one of the tonal ranges that the human visual system is fairly insensitive to. Have large blocks of data that effectively are a siwellngle shade is not interesting to look at. While we want some limited pure blacks in a B&W image, we also want to open these areas up a bit to give them more interest. Areas with no data cannot be lifted particularly well. My experience suggests adding texture will result in a stronger image.

When it comes to the photographer's intent, that is something that is always worth debating. Intent of a strong and effective image is of course generally the intent of any photographer. Small areas of pure black are fine, but large areas, in my (and others) opinion does not work as well as a more subtle mix of dark tones.

When it comes to Ted's post, his analysis was based on reproduced images, rather than the originals. Depending on the reproduction process, the subtleties of the original are easy to lose. I have yet to see a reproduced image that seems as nuanced as the original.

If you look at my low key images, there is very little, if any, pure black in them. I spend a lot of time in the studio lighting the subject to ensure that there is separation from the background (rim lighting) and I spend a lot of time dodging (and burning) to ensure that the textures are there. The example you link to in my work if fairly typical of my approach to this type of work and as I show there is little to no crushed shadow detail.

I also agree that there are shooting situations where the camera sensor cannot capture any data. Performance especially under spotlights, outdoor night photography (especially when using flash) are situations where this can occur. I try to avoid situations where this occurs, but not everyone does. I know some studio photographers who like shooting so far to the front of the studio that the background goes black. I know others that shoot on white backgrounds and try to blow out the whole background, I avoid shooting with both groups...

[xpatUSA]

Oh dear ... and sorry David, I was just beginning to like this true Black and White version:



GIMP 'threshold' option.