Tripod/Head for a Sigma 160-600 Contemporary

[Thlayle]

Hello,

I am looking for some advice regarding the tripod & head to use for my Sigma 150-600 Contemporary (mounted on Canon 5d4).

I am struggling with this lens to get sharp photos, especially at full 600mm. Various combinations of f-stops and shutter speeds, ISO -- but still not getting sharp images most of the time.

I am using a Promaster travel tripod. It seems sturdy enough, but since it is lightweight I sure its more prone to vibrations. I am also using monopod at times, but it is just the detachable leg from my Promaster.

I have never been very happy with the ball head on this tripod. I do a lot of night shooting, with much smaller lenses of course (currently an Irix Firefly) and I have found the ball head to be an issue. It always moves somewhat from where I set it, and I suspect it is not controlling vibration either. Now, with the 600 mm, I suspect this head is not up to the job at all.

So, starting with my current tripod: is it worth looking into a different head for it, and if so what should I be looking for? Types, brands, all of it.

Alternately, if I should start from scratch, different tripod, different head, what are my options, ESPECIALLY considering I do not want to go to anything very heavy (most of my shooting is in the field somewhere and involves lugging my gear pretty good distances. ALSO, I would rather not break the bank -- always the rub with kind of endeavor, I know.

Thanks,

Randy

[xpatUSA]

Hello,

I am looking for some advice regarding the tripod & head to use for my Sigma 150-600 Contemporary (mounted on Canon 5d4).

You could ask here:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/1043

Or here:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/1027

That one is for Sigma cameras - but Members are often helpful with Sigma lens questions like yours. I've seen some stunning bird shots made with your lens model posted there ...

[Thlayle]

Thanks, Ted. I am seeing some awesome results too. I have never attempted to use a lens as large as this before. My limited experience is....limiting to be sure. I am also thinking the lens may require more than I have to give it in terms of tripod support.

[Manfred M]

Before we get into tripods, etc. are you sure that this is not an issue with the lens not focusing properly. The test here is to set to a high ISO so that you can shoot at the fastest speeds your camera can handle. If the image is still soft, it could be a lens issue.

[Thlayle]

Good points, Manfred. I have tried various shutter speeds, apertures, and ISO settings. Usually, I am getting soft images. Big exceptions are the shots at lower focal lengths. But that cannot be the answer for me. For one thing, I didn't buy a 150-600 mm lens to shoot it at...say 250mm all the time. At the shorter lengths I have gotten better results.

Also this: today I left the hood off. It came off accidentally actually. I took the shot anyway and it was much better than any other recent attempts. This at 15ºF outside. Then I saw this: https://youtu.be/B42nXgYUwyo - a video from a photographer named Steve Perry, who makes a convincing argument that heat distortion occurs with long lenses in low outdoor temps with the hood on. My experience today seemed to fit with what he is saying, but if it is a factor, I am sure it is not the only one involved in my unsatisfactory results, under varying environmental conditions.

[DanK]

Yes, I saw that video also, and I think it's convincing. However, if you let your gear reach the outdoor temperature, that problem should go away.

It always moves somewhat from where I set it, and I suspect it is not controlling vibration either.

All ballheads sag a bit after being locked. Vibration is another matter altogether.

There are a lot of promaster tripods, but if it's one of the really inexpensive ones, that could be part of the problem. However, I would start by making sure that the lens is focusing properly. I agree with Manfred about raising ISO, but not so high that the noise in the image makes it hard to determine weather focus is sharp. Also, if you don't have a remote release, set your camera to a 2-second shutter delay to do this test, to make sure you aren't moving the camera. That's a real risk with a long lens and an inexpensive tripod.

[Thlayle]

I will try out some testing as suggested.

Trying now to attach an image from today. This was a fairly sharp image for a change. It was taken at 2000 ISO, 1/2000 SS, and f6.7. It has not been edited, except for about 20% of it being cropped out. This is not my usual result. Usually, my images are coming out soft.

https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/fo...0&d=1644800494

[Thlayle]

Dan, define "inexpensive." This was a $200 tripod, it's light & sturdy and intended mainly for travel I think. What should I expect to pay for a tripod that is designed for use with a longer, heavier lens? Will it be heavy too?

[DanK]

Randy,

The one I looked at on line was much less expensive than that, so it's probably not relevant.

I use an Oben carbon fiber tripod. It's one of a fair number of lightweight carbon fiber tripods in the $200+ range without a head. It's been a long time, but I think you'll find others in that range by Induro, Benro, Sirui, and others. (I chose the Oben for specific features, not because I thought it was better than those.) I wanted something light enough to strap to a backpack. I put a Markins head on it, which is quite expensive, because I wanted something that is lightweight but still smooth, and as a general rule, smaller balls are less smooth. However, in winter, when the very cold temperatures make the Markins stiff, I use a much cheaper Induro head. It's not as smooth and sags a bit more, but it's sufficient.

I use it with a 5D IV and the Canon 100-400, which I'm guessing weighs about the same as your setup. The tripod is adequate for that weight, as long as I have the weight balanced properly. For example, this is a photo that I took at 400mm with that tripod. It's not a great image, but it's sharp.



The biggest disadvantage of lightweight tripods like mine is that they are less stable, e.g., in wind. It has a hook at the bottom of the center shaft, so I hang my camera bag from that if I need more stability, e.g., on a windy day with a relatively light lens.\

Dan

[Thlayle]

Thanks, Dan. Very sharp image. I use a gear hammock with my tripod, loaded with something fairly heavy. That seems to help it feel more steady/stable. My bigger issue with tripod stability is with me kicking them when I am working at night. Just got some glow-in-the-dark tape and will see if that helps on that count.

I have really come to hate ball heads, mainly due to the diffficulty of precise alignment that comes with that sagging feature when tightening them. There must be something better...

[DanK]

I have really come to hate ball heads, mainly due to the diffficulty of precise alignment that comes with that sagging feature when tightening them. There must be something better...

Yes and no. You can essentially eliminate sagging by using a geared head. Both Manfrotto and Benro make them. That's what I use for some studio close-ups and macros because close up, the sag is large relative to the subject. However, they aren't a practical substitute. They are very heavy, and they are slow to adjust. I deal with the sag by framing slightly above what I want before tightening, or by leaving a little extra space.

The more I think about it, the more I think that testing focus should be the first step. I'd try the focus test with every possible confounding variable removed. I'd remove the hood and any filter. I'd use mirror lock-up, even though it shouldn't make any difference at fast shutter speeds. I'd use either a remote release (ideally) or a time lag in the shutter. I'd also focus both with AF and manually, because it's possible that the AF is off for that combination of body and lens. To focus manually, I'd use the lcd and magnify the image to get precise focus. And I'd shoot the tests wide open, as with the lens closed down, DOF might hide focusing problems. If possible, do it without your tripod, e.g., by placing the camera on a wall.

If this gives you sharp focus, my next step would be to replicate it on the tripod, again with a remote release but this time without mirror lock-up. I suppose it's possible that the mirror slap induces vibration in the tripod, although I really doubt it. BTW, you will get less vibration from the mirror if you set your shutter to S (silent).

If those tests are all good, you can start adding stuff back.

[Thlayle]

Thanks, Dan. That's very detailed guidance on focus testing and I appreciate it. I will try to do my best at it and see what I come up with.

[pschlute]

This was a $200 tripod, it's light & sturdy and intended mainly for travel I think. What should I expect to pay for a tripod that is designed for use with a longer, heavier lens? Will it be heavy too?

A tripod and head for use with a 160-600mm lens should be big and heavy and have a hook for hanging a weight to it. Anything else is a compromise.

The other thing to consider is shutter shock. Your camera may or may not be susceptible to this, but I would suggest avoiding shutter speeds in the 1/60-1/200 range anyway, unless you are shooting with Electronic shutter. A big lens like this on any tripod will have risk of resonance from its pivot point.

[Geoff F]

I use the Sport version of the 150-600 lens with a Canon 7D Mk II and find it takes good photos at 600 although possibly a little on the soft side closer to the 150 end.

This is a recent bird from my Project 52 thread

https://pbase.com/crustacean/image/1...1/original.jpg

Looking at your bird photo settings and comparing against what I normally use for bird shots I would say your Iso and shutter speed are far too high. I never like going beyond Iso 800 due to excessive shadow noise and although some bird scenes require a fast shutter speed I tend to keep my shots mostly under 1/1000. F6.7 is virtually wide open so I like to keep my aperture more like F8.

Sometimes I use a lens hood, mainly for disguising the lens but, inside a bird hide for example, that extra length can be a problem with available space.

I normally shoot with a tripod and a ball head, although occasionally hand hold as well. I find a lightly adjusted ball setting gives me the freedom to shoot virtually like hand holding but with my tripod taking all the weight strain. On a lightweight tripod, it can sometimes be advantages to keep the OS switched on, particularly in windy conditions etc. Most of my quick shots of birds and other similar movable subjects are taken without tightening the ball head

My normal use tripod is a Manfrotto 055 carbon fibre and their fluid ball head. Although I don't really recommend that tripod for a variety of other reasons. Sometimes, for reduced weight and portability reasons, I will use a lightweight Velbon tripod which still gives acceptable results.

So I wonder about your focusing settings if you are getting soft images. I have my AF set to just the central group of options. Too many focus points can result in your camera choosing a closer sharp edged focus subject instead of the intended subject. This often happens with wildlife shots when a foreground twig gives the focus point instead of your intended subject.

[tclune]

I am also a birder. For a long lens, you really want a gimbal. If you have a good ball head with a large ball that pans independently of any other motion, you might consider the Wimberley Sidekick as a reasonably-priced option, but you really don't want a flimsy tripod with it. For maximum portability in the field, I like a good hefty monopod with the Wimberley MonoGimbal. If you're shooting BIF, you want the kind of shutter speeds you show on your woodpecker shot, although they aren't necessary when the bird is perched. Your choice of AF mode is very important with BIF, and will vary with your camera. On my D500, I have the back button set for D25 dynamic focus and the focus preview button reprogrammed for Group mode focus. If the shot is unencumbered, Group mode is the fastest on my camera, but any branches near the focal area will distract it, so D25 works better with that. But other cameras have other choices that will work best.
Long lenses are very demanding to shoot with and require a lot of practice. I presume you shoot raw and post-process. Let me just mention the Topaz AI plugins, Denoise AI and Sharpen AI. They are terrific at cleaning up any noise and overcoming slight blurring from motion or air turbulence.
FWIW

[pendennis]

I don't know the "travel" model you have, but the more sections, the less stability you get. While they're not as portable, I own only tripods with no more than three sections. I looked on the Promaster web site, and their tripods all have at least four sections. Also consider how much your center column is extended. The more extension, the less stability.

Consider a Gitzo, or Manfrotto tripod; tall enough to keep from not much extension on the center column. As mentioned by TCLUNE, get a good gimbal. Gimbals provide stability with mobility. You should also consider using some type of weight at the bottom of the center column. Most have a hook which allows you to suspend your gear bag.

I've never been a fan of ball heads. They allow too much movement when you release the tension. The gimbals, and 3-axis tripod heads are my go-to pieces of gear. I still use the old Bogen/Manfrotto 3047's, and I found some Hejnar adapters which allow use of Arca-Swiss plates.

[Thlayle]

Geoff, thanks. I am usually shooting at those higher shutter speeds and ISO values, though I have been trying vary them. The AF setting need more exploration on my part I am sure. I am still thinking I need to figure out how to test the focusing with very controlled conditions. In the meantime, I realize I have always had an AV filter on it and have not tried taking it off. I will do that - and by the way may give up on the lens ring filters altogether. I am finding it impossible so far to remove the filter!!

Randy

[Thlayle]

Thanks much, Dennis. I strongly suspect the tripod is not steady enough for this camera and lens, even though I am well under the weight limit given by Promaster.

In the meantime , does anyone (Canon shooters, mainly) have any experience with this problem that came up while I have been trying to figure out this lens and the focusing: the main dial, the little wheel with the ridges on it, located on top of the camera has become problematic. At one point recently, I could not get it to work at all. It would not work for accessing/changing various screen controls, including not responding when I would turn it to zoom in on images on the back screen viewer. This seems to have come about after using the camera in live view and the problem would not go away. I pulled the batteries for an extended period of time, put them back in and the saw the problem go away, but only temporarily. When I used the camera in live view again, this main dial that had stopped working AGAIN started working, and is functional now. But I can only guess for how long, given what has happened with it recently. Enough there for a separate post/conversation I know, but still...its something I am dealing with right now.

[DanK]

Sorry to say, I've never experienced that with any of the 4 Canon bodies I've had that have the two-dial system. I'm guessing that the physical switch or the board it connects to has gone bad. May need a trip to Canon.

I've had mostly positive experiences with Canon service, with one big exception (which I have complained to them about): at least in the past, there has been a brick wall between the people you speak with on the phone and the techs. If the techs don't understand the problem and you call to re-explain it, you have to rely on the customer reps relaying it correctly to the techs, which hasn't always happened. However, they've always been patient, even in one case when the supposed defect was in the operator, not the camera.

[rpcrowe]

There could be many reasons for your image problems...

I am guessing that shutter speed may not be the chief suspect. Here is a shot I did with a Canon 7D and 100-400mm lens at 400mm using 1/80 second. I don't remember if it was hand held or on a monopod. I do remember that I was not using a tripod.



I used this slow shutter speed because I had been capturing panning shots of aircraft and I never changed back to a faster speed.



For a start, I would guess that the filter may be the culprit or possible part of your problem.

You mention an "AV" filter. I am guessing that this might have been a typo and the filer is actually a "UV". Try some images with the filter removed. All filters have an impact on lens sharpness but less expensive filters often have a greater impact. The image that you posted looks like many images I have seen in which the filter was the problem. There is very little contrast in the image - that also results from filter problems.

There are lots of jury-rig methods for removing a stuck filter from the lens threads but, the best way is to use a filter wrench. A filter wrench set is inexpensive and well worth purchasing and carrying with your camera...
https://smile.amazon.com/37mm-46mm-4...NsaWNrPXRydWU=

After removing the filter, I would try shooting test images using your standard tripod both manually focused and auto focused. Try in bright light wide open and stopped down a bit. Usually when the focus is off, there will be some parts of the image that are in focus and other parts that are out of focus.

When the entire image is soft - there is usually another problem.

Also - do you turn off your OS (stabilization) when tripod mounted? Some stabilization systems cause problems when the camera/lens are tripod mounted.

Of course - your camera and/or the lens itself may be the problem. Did you purchase the lens new? If so, it should be under warranty. Have you had problems with that camera and other lenses?

Here is a review of your lens by Christopher Frost https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoOY5vIoBpE

While not the sharpest lens I have seen, it should produce better results than you have been getting!