Silent Shooting

[rpcrowe]

I was at the changing of the guard at the Tomb of The Unknown Soldier, Arlington National Cemetery, Washington, D.C. This is a very solemn and silent ceremony, so I set my Sony A6600 camera on silent shooting.

I seldom, if ever, shoot video with this camera but, I wanted to capture a video snippet of the trumpeter playing taps. Not being used to shooting video, I was chagrined when the camera beeped at the start and stop of the video recording! The beep really isn't very loud but, it sounded like a fire alarm at the changing of the guard.

I learned that I needed to stop the camera from making any sounds besides just having it on silent shooting. It seems to me that the selection of silent shooting should cancel any camera sounds. Doesn't that seem reasonable?

I added muting of camera sounds and silent shooting to "My Menu". IMO, the "My Menu" is the most handy part of the Sony menu system.

[BobGilbody]

Hello Richard,

I visited Arlington twenty two years ago when I visited the USA. Very impressive.

Anyway your learning experience highlights one of my main frustrations with modern camera gear. It seems to me that the instruction manuals are written by people that are out of touch with what is required. My latest purchase [ Glanz studio flash ] comes with a single A4 bit of instruction. I figured it out for myself and using Neewer flash trigger and slave mode can get the thing to function as I want it to [ along with the Godox units that are set to slave ]. My latest problem came when I tried to use the set with EOS Utility remote [ tethered to computer ] shooting. The light would not trigger. I guess that somewhere in the several hundred pages of tech gibberish that comes with the Canon 5Ds there is information that would cause the lights to trigger. I checked the internet and this may well be the case. However if I change the camera flash set up I'm sure there are rabbit holes all over the place I will enter.
I use a Canon 5Ds and a Canon R7. Not even the ON/OFF SWITCHES are the same. One is left off the other right off. Maybe on the R7 Mk V they will be accessed via the cloud [ whatever that is ]. Maybe if the people that designed these wonderful bits of tech were more interested in providing tools to allow a person to capture images rather than spend hours trying to figure out why what they adjusted as per pg. 196 in the manual caused the adjustment referred to on pg. 354 to go off on an AI mystery tour life would be more enjoyable.
I want to capture images, I do not want to spend the rest off my life trying to figure out how the gear functions.

PS AI [ artificial intelligence ] is not intelligent. It is AR [ artificial reasoning ] with a logic that is man made and optional.

All the best Bob

[DanK]

I sympathize, but I think there are several issues here. One is that you are mixing devices from different manufacturers. That's often unavoidable. However, if you stay with one brand, you're more likely to find instructions that tell you how to make them work together.

The bigger issue is that modern cameras are designed to satisfy a wide range of photographers, so they include a LOT of features. In addition, with modern electronics, the cost of adding features is often low. That means that you have to spend a lot of time simply sorting what you want before you can even start learning how to use it.

What I did when I bought my 5D III (I didn't have to do this with the 5D IV because it was so similar) is sit down with the manual and the camera for an hour or so at a time, learning the things that were important to me and deciding how to customize the camera to work best for me. This took quite a few evenings. Then I just resort to the manual if I forget something or venture into new territory.

Cameras also evolve, and while that's for the better, it imposes costs. I'm on my fourth Canon body, and with the exception of the change from 3 to 4, all of the changes required some learning on my part but left me more satisfied than what I had been working with.

I don't think any of this complexity is related to AI. It's just complexity of design. AI usually decreases the complexity for the operator, not the other way around. For example, Adobe fed thousands of images into the computer to let the computer learn how to identify skies, first for Photoshop and now for Lightroom. This makes selecting a sky (much of the time) far simpler: I just tell the software to select the sky, and it does it for me. Likewise AI is what enables the remarkable focus tracking that many new cameras, including the R7, offer. The R7 doesn't ask you to tell it how to track faces or make you do the work; it just does it, based on what the machine learned.

My own personal preference is to rely on AI features when they make it easier for me to accomplish what I want (e.g., selecting a sky) and not when they take control of the creative process.

[BobGilbody]

Hello Dan,

What you posted is ok. What I want from the Canon people is an interactive type manual as well as the usual version. If I could type in :"Shooting wedding in church, need silent operation of camera using three speedlites" it provides a set up or several setups. It would be much better than relying on youtube. There are some good youtube sites but a lot drive me nuts with techno music and dopey people stuttering their way around the obvious. One guy states "I read the manual so you don't need to". I gave him a miss.

When I got the R7 I was happy it let me use my 'old' Canon lenses. I did read that the Canon EX-RT speedlite would not work with the R7 and I should buy a new speedlite. Thankfully that bit of propaganda I avoided.



Bob

[DanK]

Bob,

I don't think you will every find that, for two reasons. First, it's so specific. For Canon to amass a database that includes a lot of questions like that would be an enormous undertaking. Second, what you're asking for is a search engine, not a manual.

I agree about YouTube. The "music" drives me nuts, and there is no vetting of content. However, there are excellent videos on YouTube as well. The way I use it is to search first in a search engine (I use DuckDuckGo for privacy reasons), fiddling with the search terms until I get what looks like a reasonable set of links. You often need to make use of the +, -, and " symbols to narrow it down well. Then I go to web postings and YouTube videos from there.

Out of curiosity, I just read some of the R7 manual, and at least for the EX/EL flashes, the camera operates similarly with electronic and manual shutters, although with some different parameters, e.g., different maximum sync speed. If your setup works without tethering but not when tethered via the EOS utility, there might be a problem with how the utility handles flash. I never tether with that software, so unfortunately, I don't know anything helpful about it.

Dan

[BobGilbody]

Hello Dan,
Thanks for your post. Your comment about the 'database' being big makes sense.
I am not computer wise. My grandkids sort my phone out for me.
This might be a reasonable thing to consider:
I very rarely use video. Out of personal preference with the R7 I use electronic shutter. Would it be difficult to have as a first step in setting up the camera to:
1] Set for video or stills.
2] Set for mechanical or electronic shutter.
3] Set for natural light or flash.
4] Set for silent or click/beep sounds.
5] HDR on or off.
Guess there are others.

Having set these five the 'menu' then only includes options relative to the choices made in 1] to 4].

My thinking is that the camera removes the redundant options.

Bob

[inkista]

...
I learned that I needed to stop the camera from making any sounds besides just having it on silent shooting. It seems to me that the selection of silent shooting should cancel any camera sounds. Doesn't that seem reasonable?

Sure, it's reasonable from a user POV. But users don't make cameras, engineers do. To an engineer, the silent shooting is switching from mechanical shutter to e-shutter; and the silent shooting is turning off all the generated sounds. Two different functions.

Some cameras combine them in silent mode. Some do not.

And, no, nobody listens to the poor technical writer, being an inadvertent alpha tester, who points out this type of weird illogic in the UI/UX, who has to write a manual without an actual device in hand because they're still working on the prototype in the lab... Just saying. 25 years as a pro tech writer. I get how the sausages are made.

This seems like it would be a simple thing to fix, but that requires convincing higher-ups that spending money on a UI/UX designer is money well spent on savings in support. They generally don't get convinced unless they're Apple in the mid-2000s who realized that simply redesigning the UI/UX of a mobile phone could make a viable product (smartphones).

[BobGilbody]

Hello Kathy,
I agree with you, almost. Engineers do not make cameras. Companies make cameras. Companies exist to make profits. In a former life I worked as a mining engineer. I could go on ad nauseum about the problems associated with that can of worms. Perhaps these two examples will explain better my view of decision making and design:

1] I left the mining industry in Australia. I then went back to big school to study finance type stuff. One of the problems given in a tutorial was which passenger plane a board of directors should choose for their airline. We were given lots of info. There were several planes to choose from, one of which was still on the drawing board. We were told that the choice made was to 'buy' the one that was still on the drawing board. The rest of the students got busy doing finance type stuff. I just sat and enjoyed the view out of the window. I got into trouble big time. "Are you not interested in this course..........." I replied that the decision the board made was to make a decision without doing anything. By choosing a plane that was still on the drawing board they gave the impression they were buying new planes but had in reality delayed the commitment for several years.
[ The lady running the tutorial was nice [ she was Canadian ] and informed me that in the several years they had been presenting the question no student had ever come up with that answer. ] I failed and moved on.
PS the question was based on a real life situation.

I subsequently worked in the mining game in NZ, and Indonesia. One day it dawned on me that I was not fit for purpose and studied philosophy.
Anyway second example:

2] I recently visited this site: https://www.canon-europe.com/get-ins...vs-full-frame/

"Canon's full-frame image sensors have an active surface area of 36x24mm, the same size as a frame of 35mm film.

The 35mm film format dates from 1889, when it was introduced as a standard width for movie film. It soon became the norm for still photography, and was carried over into full-frame digital cameras including Canon's full-frame EOS DSLRs and EOS R System mirrorless cameras.

"Both APS-C and full-frame sensors produce images with a standard aspect ratio of 3:2, and APS-C sensors can have the same number of megapixels as full-frame sensors. However, a full-frame image sensor is physically about 63% or 1.6x larger than an APS-C format image sensor."

This does not make any sense. [ to me ] It's a dimension thing. Anyway enough of that silliness. Design should be from outside in, it should not be from inside out.

My head is beginning to hurt so I will go chase some birds.

Bob

[William W]

Is there a feel of "not all technological advances are great" in this conversation?

Anyway, a comment of that flavour -

. . . What I want from the Canon people is an interactive type manual as well as the usual version. If I could type in :"Shooting wedding in church, need silent operation of camera using three speedlites" it provides a set up or several setups. It would be much better than relying on youtube. . .

Those answers used to be addressed in one's "Apprenticeship" to a Studio, in conjunction with a two or three year Certificate or Diploma Course - one example, City and Guilds (London) - or closer to home, the trade courses - Dip. and Adv. Dip. of Photography (East Sydney Technical College).

"youtube" operatives, can be very interesting.

***

On a more serious note, I think that it is not up to Canon (the manufacturer of a tool) to foot the cost for detailed instructions of how to use the tool in every situation.

WW

[BobGilbody]

Hello Bill,
I agree absolutely. Canon have enough costs designing upgrades to cameras they designed six months ago.

Nay not really. I'm waiting for the Canon R5 Mk 75a1, before I commit to replacing my 5Ds and R7. I'm also not going to replace my 60's Gitzo tripods until a model arrives on the scene that has one leg and two virtual AI designed other legs.
I'm also on the waiting list for a body transplant and am having dinner with Eva Green in a parallel universe as I type this.

Bob

[William W]

Hello Bob.

I think I recognize sarcasm. My hope is the sarcasm was targeted at Canon. Anyway to ensure matters are straight: my comments were not sarcastic, and they were certainly not meant to be offensive or dismissive of previous comments or taking the Mickey out of anyone.

For clarity -
The first bit was scene setting - I reckon that there are a many experts on the www and with that comes a lot of misinformation - not so long ago there were courses which were governed by education standards and authorities.

I think it impossible to go back to those days of such instruction for "Photography". Crikey, today we can have a "consultation" with a GP over the telephone . . . My point being - the general education standard has dropped, significantly. And so too has the responsibility for attaining quality education.

The second bit was sincere point of view. I do believe that the manufacturer has a responsibility to adequately document their tools with user education - in the case of a camera, a user manual. On the other hand I think it is not the responsibility of the manufacturer to facilitate answers to every scenario that a user will encounter.

***

Anyway - continuing the conversation

I doubt that Canon has large costs designing upgrades to their previously designed cameras. I reckon the actual costs for upgrades to their existing cameras has fallen, significantly, very significantly, in the last ten years.

I reckon that Canon will (continue to) scale down their camera division, (meaning dslr, mirror-less, video etc consumer cameras), even more severely over the next ten years.

Once there are (the inevitable) changes to the imaging requirements in arenas such as: Olympic Games; World Cup; etc, - which are now the only drivers to Canon's high-end (camera) products, I think Canon will divest much of their 'camera' division.

Canon Global is a very interesting company. It employs a unique approach to "monozukuri". Monozukuri has no end point, it is continually evolving.

Canon is committed to encasing fully automated production systems, whilst, at the same time, Canon is committed to the transfer of experience and expertise within their workforce.

Canon believes the evolution of monozukuri is "the driving force of future society". (their words). Canon take an interesting approach to business, quite family-centric. I expect that family will survive, it is designed so to do - however, I think the family is seeing the end coming for a part of their family. Nostalgic. There will be collectors.

***

Bob, I really do think you'll be waiting a long time for Canon to develop 'an interactive type manual as well as the usual version'.

Crikey in ten/fifteen years - I reckon it's odds-on that there won't be any new Canon Cameras, anyway.

WW

Post script - If only there was a way to access their corporate ledgers to see the actual loss (I expect) is accruing in their global camera division.

[BobGilbody]

Hello Bill,
I didn't take offense. I have the manuals for the camera bodies but I get lost in all the possibilities available these days.
Thanks for the information re Canon.

All the best Bob

[Ken MT]

You would think that ChatGPT would come up the answer

[lunaticitizen]

You would think that ChatGPT would come up the answer

[tclune]

It seems to me that the selection of silent shooting should cancel any camera sounds. Doesn't that seem reasonable?

I presume that the beep behavior is a menu item also. If you choose silent shooting and beep to begin and end, I would expect the behavior you observed to be the result. It might be more user-friendly to display a prompt indicating any sound effects that are active when you select silent shooting, but that's about it. Or so ISTM.