selling your work

[Colin Southern]

Totally agree Colin and unfortunately it's that side that myself (especially) and others are really weak at.

The irony is that I'm actually very strong at that ... problem is I just don't have the time to put the work in

Sewing seeds, harvesting the crop, baking the loaf and ending up with fruit ? Is that a mixed metaphor or an example of astute business acumen

I hear what you mean, and can see what you're saying!

[Peter Ryan]

I agree with all of you that building a photography business is very hard work but there are some points that maybe need to be clarified.

I do not intend to build a business to make me $100,000+ a year. I just want to develop a business that makes me around $15,000 - $20,000 and gives me an overseas trip every year or two – moving into retirement.

BUT. I do not believe that I should undercut the market and destroy it for other trying to build a long term business and feed their families so I try and price my work so as not to impair their value. I have worked for myself setting up a number of businesses for over 20 years.

I have always told my partner that you do not make much money out of selling prints but I can make $1,000 a day doing workshops, etc and that’s what I use the markets and print sales for. If people like what you do they want to do it themselves so teaching certainly a rewarding way to go.

I see professional and they do it all, commercial work, publish articles and/or books teach, lead trips, web lectures, etc, etc. It takes an awful lot of time to build up if you want this to be your main income earner but I also think that there is a level where you can get out there, have fun, meet people, share your passion and enjoy your hobby/business.

So don’t think this will change your life overnight just get out there and do it for yourself but don’t destroy the market for the serious players in the meantime. Know your worth and stick to it and they will come.

[rob marshall]

I think the classic mistake a lot of people make (and I'm not just talking photographers here) is that many people assume that because they're good at doing the technical work of a business (ie "they're good photographers") then they'll do well running a business that does that technical work (ie "making money from photography"). The reality is though of course that there is so so so so much more to running a profitable & successful business than just the "photography"; obviously things like accounting / advertising / marketing / selling - things that most people know nothing about (or even worse, they THINK they know something about), and as a consequence they either don't do these other CRITICAL things, or they do them badly, and the "business" fails.

So it's my conviction that many here have the knowledge and skill to succeed with the photography side of a photography business, but that's not what it's about. Heck, I've had a "previous life" in business building / sales & marketing / advertising -- and I've built my own computer company - and I'm STILL struggling to build the photography side of the business (it's getting there - slowly). I think that anyone who thinks they're going to immediately enjoy significant and effortless success is in for a rude awakening (not pointing that at you Rob; it applies to all of us -- I just thought your last reply was a good catalyst for my little lecture!).

Colin. I quite agree. I think (risking the danger of going off onto our favorite bete noire topic) that amateur wedding photography falls into that category. The UK seems to be full of amateur togs who just want to 'do a a few weddings', completely failing to appreciate the more subtle requirements of the overall task. Selling prints locally may seem a softer option, but there is just as much other requirement and skills needed. I may be a fairly good photographer, but my people skills are dreadful. And people skills are almost as important when selling landscape prints as being a wedding photographer.

When you are a one-man band you need to play all the instruments. I used to work as a software analyst/developer in a large comapany. I was pretty good at the narrow area of expertise that I worked in, but I was probably hopeless at every thing else. But as I never had to do the other stuff - there were always other people to do those things as it was a large organisation - I never really found that out. You tend to get complacent in an environment like that, and it can be a bit of a shock to discover there are some things that you are not good at.

[Colin Southern]

Colin. I quite agree. I think (risking the danger of going off onto our favorite bete noire topic) that amateur wedding photography falls into that category. The UK seems to be full of amateur togs who just want to 'do a a few weddings', completely failing to appreciate the more subtle requirements of the overall task. Selling prints locally may seem a softer option, but there is just as much other requirement and skills needed. I may be a fairly good photographer, but my people skills are dreadful. And people skills are almost as important when selling landscape prints as being a wedding photographer.

A friend of mine was the sales manager in charge of several other salesmen at one of our local car sales yards. As you would expect in that kind of role, he's comfortable dealing with strangers - good at thinking on his feet - quite ruthless in closing deals (but in such a nice way), but his real passion is photography.

To start with, his technical skills were minimal, but he was never afraid to come and see me and say "I don't understand this" or "I don't know what to do in this situation"; I think many males would struggle to do that ("ego" etc), but he was obviously comfortable / confident in himself enough to do that -- and no surprises, it usually wasn't hard to sort the technical issues out.

But right from day 1, I hammered it in to him that the business skills were far more important than the photography skills, but obviously the maximum return comes from a high degree of skill in both. So around 3 years later we have someone who's technical skills are better than anyone else in town (and he still thanks me regularly for that!) - his "web presence" skills are equally as developed thanks to the work he's put in in that department (with help from other experts) - and of course, the previous people skills gets the customers eating out of his hand somewhat effortlessly.

So how is this business doing? Frankly, the competition don't know what the hell has hit them. I think he's probably the most expensive around - doesn't discount - and in the coming season, will probably book as many as, or more weddings than anybody else in town, and STILL we can make him better.

I think it's a good example of what one can achieve when one takes a step back - analyses what's needed in the various areas - and then sets about learning what's required across all those areas.

If you're interested, check him out at www.nelsonweddingphotography.co.nz (if nothing else, it spikes his website stats, and he wonders what the heck is causing it!).

[Nomadr]

thanks for the input so far, i am not very good at photography, i get results through luck rather than judgement,
i have done a few digital photography evening classes in the past, one thing i noticed is a lot of the togs on those courses presumed they would take a good picture,exhibit it,sell it for tons of money and become famous,
obviously this doesnt happen in the real world, but they needed someone with experience (ie the tutor) to tell them this fact,
IMO there are far too many photographers out there, the market is saturated with cheap images from pennystock sites, if you can find a niche or a different angle to get noticed then that might help (my tutor told the story of a guy who only photographed spoons,he became renowned and did very well out of it),
my passion is dance/movement/blur (i picked the subject at college thinking it would be so easy,lol),from specializing in low light movement i also found i could get quite good images of burlesque dancers in action at certain venues where the stage lighting was pretty rubbish,one ambition is to take pics of the royal ballet,
anyway i digress, one of the main reasons for doing this art fair thing is to test the water for little outlay, i need to be forearmed and know the pitfalls so i can avoid mistakes and so far there is loads of good advice, cheers martyn

[Peter Ryan]

Hi Martyn,

A couple more things to think about when doings markets.

How are you going to display your images? I built an A-framed easel with extendable wings that I can collapse down and put in the back of my ute. I can send you an image if you like.

How are you going to deal with wind? If you have your images learning up on something how do you stop them from blowing over? Glass will break. I quickly realized I needed a market tent and bought a very cheap one on e-bay. Now I enjoy it and I seem to have some success I have upgraded but I got the cost of the first one to about $20 per market before it fell apart.

Most fairs or markets will want you to have insurance. Some will have a general cover and you can an extra couple of dollars to be covered. I did take my own and this is another outlay to consider.

What size are you going to present. I basically do A3 and A4 framed prints and a panorama style based on 1:3ratio but I find the latter is not is sufficiently significant statement and have just had some framed purposely made at 1:2 ration and slightly wider mount so I finish with an overall framed image around 12 in x 22in. I did try some smaller 6 x 8 framed images at $40 to try a different pricing point but while people liked them I have not sold one. They still buy the larger images. My partner is very astute and thinks while they like them they think oh I can do that. You will find your images will suit a certain size for viewing. You need to think about which image suit what size presentation.

You did ask about frames previously. I use two styles only, both timber – one is plan black and the other a teak frame with walnut inlay. I use three mount boards – black, white and cream. I explain I am about the image not framing and these styles give me a consistent approach and the customer cannot say – I like that image but I want that frame. I will take images out of frames and sell them so they can get it framed to suit their home.

I am not sure if you have framed photos before but photographic paper is different to paper you pint on. Photographic paper will expand and contract so I just use non-acid tape and put a strip about 3 inches across the top and let the mount board and backing board hold the image in place. This allows the paper to breath. If you tape it all a around it will expand but not contract as much and then the image will bow in the middle. I do leave the image attached to the mount board if I sell it without the frame and tape it again on the bottom to keep it in place until they get home but tell them to only tape it across the top when they eventually put it in a frame.

You will need something for the customer to carry the framed image home in. I purchased very large paper bags with string handles. I had to buy 250 as a minimum order – not expensive but still working my way through them.

Good luck and let me know how you go.

[Nomadr]

Hi Peter i have decided to get 4 prints framed and mounted, i get a trade discount from the guy but it still works out at £25 UK pounds per frame, others buy cheap pictures from places like Ikea and The Range and re-use the frames , i have decided to go all black wooden frames for consistency , unsure about the mounts yet, we will study the pics and see what colour looks best,
the other pics will have a mount and hard board back,wrapped in cellophane (looks so much better than just a piece of photo paper), i think that adds another £3 to the cost,i already have a few A2 canvas prints and 4 big canvas prints,
i definately need some sort of rack so people can flick through the mounted ones,
i think the stalls have sides and backs so wind shouldnt be too much of a problem, will find out more about that at a meeting tonight, i will also ask about public liability insurance.cheers martyn

[Nomadr]

heres a few pictures from the art car boot sale we held, some folks were better prepared than others, i had a pasting table and some string,lol

[Nomadr]

well we have the first show on april 17th, i have decided to do some signed prints in frames and some unsigned prints in mounts, as well as a few stretched canvas which i have left over from exhibitions,
decided against limited editions,
i will see what happens , its not really worth having loads of prints done until i can see what sells (if anything) and what doesnt,
will let you know how we all get on,cheers martyn